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Subject:  They have seen the light!!

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Frank and Tina

South East

It took a while but their seared conscience finally kicked in.

https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2019/december-web-only/trump-should-be-removed-from-office.html

12/20/2019 8:18:56 AM

OLD-ROOKIE

NILES , CALIF

Far left democratic Christians

12/20/2019 1:40:57 PM

Spudley (Scott)

Alaska

Lol, the majority of Christians value their bank account more than they do their morality. Wouldn't have said that before Trump was elected but now it's obvious. SAD!

12/20/2019 1:54:01 PM

Porkchop(team sLamMer)

Central NY

....the moment you realize you’ve never clicked on a suggested link on BP.com....omg...Merry Christmas y’all

12/20/2019 4:01:13 PM

Frank and Tina

South East

Hardly far left Old rookie, Christianity Today, is a flagship publication of the evangelical movement. It was founded by Billy Graham himself in 1956, and it's been a beacon for evangelicals.

lemme quote some parts just for fun":
"The facts in this instance are unambiguous: the president of the United States attempted to use his political power to coerce a foreign leader to harass and discredit one of the president's political opponents," He draws the obvious conclusion for Christians: "That is not only a violation of the Constitution; more importantly, it is profoundly immoral."

Trump "has dumbed down the idea of morality in his administration." "He has hired and fired a number of people who are now convicted criminals." "He himself has admitted to immoral actions in business and his relationship with women, about which he remains proud. His Twitter feed alone -- with its habitual string of mischaracterizations, lies, and slanders -- is a near perfect example of a human being who is morally lost and confused."

Dang, harsh words from a leading evangelical publication.

12/20/2019 4:30:25 PM

Frank and Tina

South East

And they end with a warning

And the warning to Christians is clear. "To the many evangelicals who continue to support Mr. Trump in spite of his blackened moral record, we might say this: remember who you are and whom you serve," Galli writes. "Consider how your justification of Mr. Trump influences your witness to your Lord and Savior. Consider what an unbelieving world will say if you continue to brush off Mr. Trump's immoral words and behavior in the cause of political expediency. If we don't reverse course now, will anyone take anything we say about justice and righteousness with any seriousness for decades to come?"

I'd say the dam has finally broken. Hopefully a sign of things to come. Just let Donald be Donald.

12/20/2019 4:32:40 PM

Gourdzilla

San Diego, Ca.

Don't get too excited in your wishful thinking.
https://www.facebook.com/131201286936061/posts/2925457574177071/

12/20/2019 5:26:43 PM

Gourdzilla

San Diego, Ca.

In fact I'll just post it for you.

Franklin Grahams response to Christianity today:

My Response to Christianity Today:

Christianity Today released an editorial stating that President Trump should be removed from office—and they invoked my father’s name (I suppose to try to bring legitimacy to their statements), so I feel it is important for me to respond. Yes, my father Billy Graham founded Christianity Today; but no, he would not agree with their opinion piece. In fact, he would be very disappointed. I have not previously shared who my father voted for in the past election, but because of this article, I feel it is necessary to share it now. My father knew Donald Trump, he believed in Donald Trump, and he voted for Donald Trump. He believed that Donald J. Trump was the man for this hour in history for our nation. ....Continued

12/20/2019 5:46:08 PM

Gourdzilla

San Diego, Ca.

For Christianity Today to side with the Democrat Party in a totally partisan attack on the President of the United States is unfathomable. Christianity Today failed to acknowledge that not one single Republican voted with the Democrats to impeach the President. I know a number of Republicans in Congress, and many of them are strong Christians. If the President were guilty of what the Democrats claimed, these Republicans would have joined with the Democrats to impeach him. But the Democrats were not even unanimous—two voted against impeachment and one voted present. This impeachment was politically motivated, 100% partisan. Why would Christianity Today choose to take the side of the Democrat left whose only goal is to discredit and smear the name of a sitting president? They want readers to believe the Democrat leadership rather than believe the President of the United States.

12/20/2019 5:46:33 PM

Gourdzilla

San Diego, Ca.

Look at all the President has accomplished in a very short time. The economy of our nation is the strongest it has been in 50 years, ISIS & the caliphate have been defeated, and the President has renegotiated trade deals to benefit all Americans. The list of accomplishments is long, but for me as a Christian, the fact that he is the most pro-life president in modern history is extremely important—and Christianity Today wants us to ignore that, to say it doesn’t count? The President has been a staunch defender of religious freedom at home and around the world—and Christianity Today wants us to ignore that? Also the President has appointed conservative judges in record number—and Christianity today wants us to ignore that? Christianity Today feels he should be removed from office because of false accusations that the President emphatically denies.

Christianity Today said it’s time to call a spade a spade. The spade is this—Christianity Today has been used by the left for their political agenda. It’s obvious that Christianity Today has moved to the left and is representing the elitist liberal wing of evangelicalism.

Is President Trump guilty of sin? Of course he is, as were all past presidents and as each one of us are, including myself. Therefore, let’s pray for the President as he continues to lead the affairs of our nation.

12/20/2019 5:46:50 PM

Smallmouth (Team Ozark)

Missouri

You can find anything to support your cause on the internet, Frank. It goes both ways.

https://latinosfortrump.us/

12/20/2019 6:11:37 PM

G. Kins

Pirates of the Pacific

I believe Republicans are successfully grabbing every single traditional democrat blue collar voter from the democrats. Robbing your party blind. I think the democrats have no clue.

Seeing the light? More like... A deer the headlights of a large truck?

12/20/2019 6:21:40 PM

G. Kins

Pirates of the Pacific

I do think the democrats have one good candidate but overall the party have been stinkers for the past few years. Lol... And Trump is in favor of toilets that actually flush. I welcome the return of a good honest Democratic Party, but first get rid of the bad apples please!

12/20/2019 6:30:33 PM

bnot

Oak Grove, Mn

how many of you think Trump is the moral example that you want your children to follow. My opinion...he is immorral...if I was evangelical...i would not put him up as the ideal for my child. I am not evangelical...and I do like the way the economy has been....but...if you vote from your spiritual beliefs....are you trading your beliefs for something that you really do not like.

It was a good editorial...it should make a few people reevaluate what they are supporting.

as a country...I think we still do not have a good choice to choose from

12/20/2019 6:54:35 PM

Gourdzilla

San Diego, Ca.

I don't know of any evangelical who would put President Trump as the ideal for their child. Why? Because he's just like you and just like me, a man with faults. The Ideal for every child to look up to is Jesus Christ and him alone.
I'm going to sit back now and see who blows a gasket over that one. LOL

12/20/2019 7:21:38 PM

Iowegian

Anamosa, IA BPIowegian@aol.com

Matthew 7:1-3. Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Did that magazine forget to read this? Franklin Graham has already apologized ans said that his father, who founded that magazine, would not be pleased.

I admit that I forget this way too often.

Trump is not perfect. Nobody is perfect. Who wants to throw the first stone.

Funny how separation of church and state is so important when it is convenient. But if religion can be used to tear down a political rival, well, that's different.

Article VI paragraph 3 of the constitution ends with this "but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

Do we observe this part of the constitution, or do we ignore it when it suits our interests? Does the President have to pass a religious test to avoid impeachment?

Can a Christian vote for a non-Christian? Or a sinner? Where do we draw the line? Who gets to decide which sin is the worst?

12/20/2019 7:37:30 PM

Frank and Tina

South East

We all know Franklin is a staunch Trump supporter Gourdzilla and we also knew that a nice little pro Trump rant would come to follow up the op ed.

I,m not interested in the older evangelicals who as long as he appoints their desired judges in their pro life quest are willing to excuse anything and everything he does under the "we are all sinners" excuse. "Appoint the federal judges we want and we will look the other way" They have made their choice and reserve judgment no matter how reprehensible the language or action as long as they get what they want. That's the "bargain" they made with their conscience.

Its those young evangelicals who are already jaded by older evangelicals' embrace of Trump that are excited by people speaking up and taking a stand.

There are now cracks in the wall of evangelical support for Trump. The call for removal may not sway the majority of evangelicals but maybe just enough to make a difference in the 2020 election.

12/20/2019 8:09:23 PM

Spudley (Scott)

Alaska

Lol, you all claimed the moral high ground when it was Bill Clinton. Now you crown Donald Trump a Saint. What a bunch of political Pius bullshit!

12/20/2019 8:20:22 PM

Spudley (Scott)

Alaska

Political "Pious" Bullshit that is.

12/20/2019 8:24:14 PM

Gourdzilla

San Diego, Ca.

F/T I wasn't born yesterday. I'm not buying any of your explanation above. Seems you were all giddy at the beginning invoking Billy Grahams name like he would certainly be approving of the piece in C/T by the political hack who wrote it. You had no idea that Franklin Graham had said anything until I rained on your parade.
Let me ask you, when was the last time you stepped in a church that you can comment on the pulse on what young evangelicals are feeling and thinking. Like everything else you post, its all just misrepresentations of everything under the sun.

12/20/2019 9:46:40 PM

eastkypumpkin(Dwight)

Prestonsburg,ky

Trump 2020

12/20/2019 10:28:04 PM

Frank and Tina

South East

Couldn't care less about Graham's name, but for the people doubting Christianity Today it might add some validity. I have to; because Trump fanatics like to label everything negative about their idol either fake or left wing politically motivated. Either way, admitting or facing his shortcomings is either non existent or short lived, followed by summary of his humble "accomplishments", like they somehow make up for his immorality. (like Graham did)

I visit Church probably just as much as Trump does, just when I go unlike Trump its not for a photo op, appease the evangelicals or to generate votes. So I'm sure you'l approve.

After all I,m a man just like you, a man with faults.

I'm sad to see though that since you don't share the authors opinion, you call him a political hack all of sudden while you probably purr of approval reading Grahams rebuke. Evangelical or not, you are also a partisan. With a clear agenda.

And because another evangelical who could not look the other way anymore and abandoned ship in the most public of ways calling out his brothers and sister he felt were hypocrites you get angry with me?

How disappointing.



12/20/2019 10:33:08 PM

Gourdzilla

San Diego, Ca.

I don't know why you would feel so disappointed. Look how you started this post. Don't be so surprised when you get called out. It wasn't provoking at all was it?

12/21/2019 12:11:23 AM

Iowegian

Anamosa, IA BPIowegian@aol.com

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/donald-trump-signs-defense-bill-that-creates-space-force-expands-parental-leave/ar-BBYdbXX?li=BBnb7Kz

Look what could have been happening if the opposition had been willing to work with Trump and make deals. Both sides got something they wanted. Trump wanted to make deals, offered to make deals from the start. But what happened? Hate and jealousy took over. Getting everything you want isn't enough. You have to make sure the other side loses everything, And the good of the people is ignored. Keep on agitating. Get self proclaimed Christians to join in the fight. Not to mediate, but to take sides.

Just what happened in the Middle East. When Kissinger and Carter acted s neutral facilitators, they got peace between Israel and Egypt. But once we sent in troops, picked sides, it all fell apart. Decades of war. We didn't learn a thing, did we. Keep repeating the mistakes over and over. Both overseas and at home.

Sure, go ahead and claim victory. You got a "Christian" magazine to pick sides. Convinced them not to try to mediate but to agitate. Do you think that will get the other side to give in? Or will it just make them fight harder? While you gloat about how you struck another blow in the fight.

If Christianity Today thought they were helping the situation, they were wrong. They only made it worse.

Just look at the comments above. They didn't change any opinions, just agitated things even more.

12/21/2019 1:23:54 AM

Spudley (Scott)

Alaska

When wealth is lost, nothing is lost; when health is lost, something is lost; when character is lost, all is lost.
Billy Graham

12/21/2019 1:29:49 AM

G. Kins

Pirates of the Pacific

F&T... Why do you want people to 'unsupport Trump?' If you want God to govern you, go to church.

12/21/2019 2:02:57 AM

G. Kins

Pirates of the Pacific

Schiff or any of them would pass the character test? They cant. Its like you are arguing in favor of Trump.

12/21/2019 2:07:39 AM

roger80

Susquehanna Pa

The only way Trump would be looking down after death is if they wrapped his body in a robe and placed it face down in a burial tree. Wonder if Lindsey Graham would find this joke funny.

12/21/2019 7:20:09 AM

DKrus

Cheshire Ma USA

Amazing !!!! They need to seek help for TRUMP derangement syndrome !! When your pumpkins and other vegatables don't grow as big as you expect I bet you can find a way to blame Trump, or let me help, global warming !!! It couldn't possibly be you, a bad seed, disease,or maybe a combination of bad things that give you a less than desired result. Blame someone or something that you dislike for everything you think went wrong. LOL

12/21/2019 7:53:08 AM

G. Kins

Pirates of the Pacific

Politics, religion, death, and the size of one's pumpkins... Oh my... this is it. The Grand Slam of a winter posts!!!

12/21/2019 10:09:37 AM

G. Kins

Pirates of the Pacific

*of winter posts!

12/21/2019 10:11:12 AM

Jane & Phil

Ontario, Canada

Political BS is right Scott. Clinton was molesting a young girl in the White house, in the oval office & you guys still think that that was acceptable?
Trump isn't even close to being a saint, but everyone knew who & what he was before he ran for office & he still won easily. Get over it. In less than 1 year you'll be able to vote him out. If you can. Maybe Trumps daughter or Don Jr will run in 2024. Wouldn't that be great. A Trump dynasty. That would get the dems in an uproar. LOL.

12/21/2019 10:50:23 AM

Porkchop(team sLamMer)

Central NY

2024 -Ivanka trump..first female president..2032 don jr...2040 Eric trump...2048 Barron trump...keep it up spuds..we need guys like you online

12/21/2019 1:46:05 PM

Doug14

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

Thanks Vince for giving us another side of the story. I believe the President's pro-life stance is very important to many Christians.

12/21/2019 2:57:22 PM

Spudley (Scott)

Alaska

Lol, do you guys have duel citizenship?

12/21/2019 3:01:19 PM

G. Kins

Pirates of the Pacific

So now its unpatriotic to support Trump? Got any other gems?

12/21/2019 4:05:31 PM

G. Kins

Pirates of the Pacific

Sorry. Just thought that was a strange line of attack.

12/21/2019 4:13:31 PM

G. Kins

Pirates of the Pacific

I just dont see how Trump has hurt this country. If anyone has been personally hurt by Trump I am all ears but I have been on these boards awhile and the only arguments still seem to be media-hype... Anyone got anything personal from the heart against Trump...? Lots of bluster that adds up to nonsense its all very lovely dinner conversation though. I am very sure he should not be idolized but when it comes to the simple job of putting a better candidate forward the dem party shows zero intellectual or leadership ability... What happened dems? Why are you deer in the headlights??? Honk, honk, wake up?!

12/21/2019 4:41:14 PM

Iowegian

Anamosa, IA BPIowegian@aol.com

Let me get this straight. The democrats rigged their nomination. Russians hacked their computers and published the rigging. That was terrible. That all should have remained secret. That makes it OK to accuse Trump of conspiring with Russians We need a big investigation. No evidence, but that doesn't exonerate him. Accusation stands.

The media gave debate questions to Hillary but not Trump. But that was OK. Hillary was careless when handling state secrets. But that was OK and we should have trusted her to be President. But we shouldn't trust Trump.

The democrats used 17 lies or errors to get a spying warrant and renew it 3 times. No problem there.

Biden bragged about demanding and getting a quid pro quo from Ukraine. He got the prosecutor looking into his son's highly questionable gravy train fired. But that was OK because the prosecutor was corrupt. He could have exposed a huge conflict of interest. But when Trump asked for an investigation into the whole sordid matter, that is a high crime. No actual law violation cited. the only direct witness exonerated Trump. But 2nd and 3rd hand accounts are good enough.

Democrats demanded Trump let everyone testify. Trump said no and the departments appealed to the courts. Democrats decided they can have everything they want, don't need no court.

Now I get it. Democrats can do no wrong, Trump can do no right. Doesn't everyone see the morality in that? Trump actually beat Hillary. The most immoral act in the history of politics. Makes anything the democrats do to hurt him pure and angelic.

12/21/2019 7:51:28 PM

Frank and Tina

South East

Your hatred for dems and liberals is worse then liberal despise for Trump. That hatred has blinded you. And when years from now the clouds of hatred dissipate and you can think clear again, you and many with you will be ashamed of the things you tried to justify. The most corrupt administration of our lifetimes.

12/21/2019 8:39:45 PM

Smallmouth (Team Ozark)

Missouri

^^^^^ says the person who started the post ^^^^

Blind leading the blind?

12/21/2019 8:51:59 PM

Frank and Tina

South East

It works both ways.

12/21/2019 10:39:43 PM

Duster

San Diego

Although we are all guilty of sin, every one of us, I can never stand with the democratic party for one reason. The deal breaker is the celebration and approval of the death of unborn children across this nation of ours. The most innocent of life is children, and the unborn that are developing inside their mother who are completely dependent on them for their protection and nurturing for life. In the name of one of the most selfish lies you can ever do, to murder your own child inside of you for the sake of convenience or a woman's right (we are not talking about the rare exceptions of rape, etc), is the most heinous act I can imagine. God's love and protection of children are expressed in some of the most graphic Bible verses you can imagine.

"But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea." Matt 18:6

If God is that graphic to the individual who causes a child to not believe in Him, what is to be said of the one who murders them and approves of it?

"Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward." Psalm 127:3

Our society has heaped up individuals to promote this killing and find a way to make people feel it is justified. As long as the Democratic Party promotes this, they will never get support from the Christian Community.

Why have we as a nation become so numb to this?

12/21/2019 10:50:57 PM

Iowegian

Anamosa, IA BPIowegian@aol.com

Frank, I never said I hated anyone. I disagree with democrats, I was a democrat for 46 years. They changed, I didn't. I never said I thought Trump was a choir boy. I voted against him 3 years ago.

It must me nice to be able to know what someone hates what they are blinded by.

I respectfully disagree with your statement about the administration's corruption. I think that sending guns to Mexican drug cartels, sending billions in untraceable cash to the terrorist state of Iran, assuming legislative powers to unconstitutionally establish the DACA program is very corrupt.

Condoning a secretary of state mishandling top secret information and destroying devices to hide the fact is corrupt. Using 17 "mistakes and omissions" to get a warrant to spy on an opponent's campaign is corrupt. Giving your candidate secret debate questions to cheat in the election is corrupt. A vice president holding up financial aid in order to get the prosecutor investigating his son and his employer fired is very corrupt. And just claiming that the prosecutor was corrupt does not excuse quid pro quo to cover up a conflict of interest.

I am not saying that the Trump administration is perfect. I know that many mistakes have been made. But when compared to the 2009-2017 administration, the Trump administration looks less corrupt to me. But that is just my opinion. Am I entitled to an opinion? Or is my opinion just automatically wrong because I don't accept the theory of democrat superiority?

It won't work this time to claim that you don't want to hear about Hillary and Obama. I have heard that from you several times. YOU are the one who compared Trump's administration to all others. YOU brought Obama and Hillary into it this time.

And I am not saying you are full of hate or blind. I try to avoid those kind of personal attacks. That is not logic, just silly name calling. We disagree. that is all. I will let you judge yourself. Go ahead and judge me if you want.

12/21/2019 11:16:22 PM

G. Kins

Pirates of the Pacific

Or the most honest. Which would offend more?
The Russians didnt want Hillary because she was openly hostile towards Russia. Thats fair game on there part. We would do the same to them and worse if we felt threatened. Trump is also hostile towards them, but less so. We dont want an angry woman in power. She will reach straight for the nuclear button. I get the feeling thats what some people want. Some people cant tolerate the idea of sharing 'their' planet with others? We gotta stop acting like control freaks. Basically Hillary would have been queen of world control. Given the choice between power and compassion, how fast would she have fallen for further sociopathic power. 'We came. We saw. He died.'.

12/21/2019 11:24:19 PM

Gourdzilla

San Diego, Ca.

Humm...3 plus years and counting of daily posting your contempt for YOUR president (he is your president, right?) is completely fine but if someone states a few things your own party is guilty of it is considered hateful??? OK? Obviously, rational thinking is not important in the mind of a lib. Ever notice how libs love to project their own guilt upon others who don't agree with them?

12/21/2019 11:25:22 PM

G. Kins

Pirates of the Pacific

Not sure truth or logic weigh heavliy on F&T .
If the mind is agenda driven, then real discussion is impossible.

12/21/2019 11:33:35 PM

Iowegian

Anamosa, IA BPIowegian@aol.com

Frank, I am thinking very clearly. No hate.

What did I try to justify? Trump refusing to allow testimony? Read Article III of the Constitution. Section 2 paragraph 1 starts out with " The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution,". The men who wrote the constitution expected there would be disputes between the President and Congress. That is why they included this clause. The court is supposed to handle this kind of dispute. If the President then refuses to follow the court order, then impeachment is necessary. But ignoring the constitution and trying to usurp the court's power is an abuse of power on the part of the House of Representatives.

Did I try to justify Trump trying to get an investigation into the quid pro quo that Biden bragged about? Yes. Absolutely. It is the President's job to execute the laws. If he has evidence of a violation of ethics laws (using your office to protect a relative) it is his duty to investigate. Did he ask for election interference? No. He asked for an investigation. He knew he couldn't withhold the aid and he didn't. But granting a meeting with him is exempt from quid pro quo statutes. The Supreme Court has already ruled on a similar case involving a governor. The only house witness with first hand knowledge stated that Trump wanted nothing, no quid pro quo. Just do the right thing. Does running for office make you immune to investigation? NO. The democrats investigated Trump. It is not a crime to do your duty just because someone doesn't like it. Democrats tried to convict Rick Perry in Texas for doing the governor's job and they failed in court. Trump can't violate the law simply by doing his job,

That is what I tried to justify. Nothing to be ashamed about. Fully thought out.

Sorry, Frank, but your insults and name calling are self defeating. And they don't deserve any further attention from me. Every one who reads this can see through the i

12/21/2019 11:48:10 PM

G. Kins

Pirates of the Pacific

Duster you are correct. A man is legally responsible at conception. No way out of it. So why should a woman get to cop out. If she consented he should have legal rights.
The only problem is... Lots of fake rape allegations, then. Off topic. But Duster... How do you then deal with fake rape allegations?

12/21/2019 11:48:30 PM

G. Kins

Pirates of the Pacific

Many women are devastated and regret it. Men are too. But others lack of compassion is perhaps not something we can legislate or judge. But we can be aware, at least.

12/21/2019 11:57:17 PM

Iowegian

Anamosa, IA BPIowegian@aol.com

We are not numb to just the slaughter of our children.
W are numb to the violence that pervades our society.
Murder and violence in our streets,
And our military engaged in wars wherever we can find them or start them.

We just don't want to take responsibility for it.
An unborn baby is so small, it can be hidden away where no one notices. No body ever got to see them, so they don't count.
For murder in the streets, we just blame the guns. It is the fault of those inanimate objects, not people, you know.
And with war, well it is overseas so we don't see it. So much of it is now done by remote control. Someone at a US military base controls a drone and launches a missile, just like our video games. We never even see the country, let alone the broken bodies and blood.
And war is big business. We reap huge profits over death. We can't stop killing; we would lose too many jobs.

And it is not just the fault of democrats. Republicans are to blame as well. And so are the American people.
Where are all the anti-war protesters? In the 60's they were on the news every evening. Now, nobody cares.
Nobody is getting drafted because of our technology.
Abortion snuffs out millions of lives, and abortion protesters are hated. After all it is nothing more than a choice.


12/22/2019 6:09:21 AM

Iowegian

Anamosa, IA BPIowegian@aol.com

People go around thinking they are so patriotic and religious when they demand that God must bless America. How arrogant is that?
We ignore God's commandments, have blood dripping from our hands and think we can tell God what to do.
We should instead be humbly asking God to heal our hearts and our nation.
But that means we would have t admit that we are wrong.
But we never admit we are wrong. Even when we do something wrong and have to pay for it, we make people sign non-disclosure agreements.Never admit the blame.
We don't blame people for the violence, just the weapons that are harmless until an evil person picks one up.
And war is justified just because we say so. Even if our government has to lie to start the war.
Until we admit that we are wrong, things will only get worse.

12/22/2019 6:10:24 AM

Duster

San Diego

In a world that is full of violence, evil, greed, murder, war, etc. Whether Trump is President or not; whether Republican or Democrats hold the office, it does not matter. What does matter is the following:

For all the people of the world who have made mistakes. For the murderers, the adulterers, the woman who had an abortion, for the liars, cheats, thieves, the homosexual and anything else you can imagine. The best news ever is this. God, sent His one and only Son into the world for you because He loves you. He died the most painful death you can imagine with you in mind. His death was a gift that took your place. For we all deserve to die for our sins, but He died in our place. Our Creator died for you. If you admit your sins to God, ask for His forgiveness with a repentant heart, and put your faith in Jesus Christ, you will be saved. And not only saved, but the peace of God which transcends all understanding will come into your heart. You will be a child of God and never be the same! The same God that used a Prostitute, a cheating Tax collector, a murderer, an adulterer, and many others with terrible backgrounds in the Bible, He can use you and love you as well. God has changed my life, this I can publicly testify too. Christ is born, the savior of the world! Do you know Him? Nothing else matters.

This world is falling apart and will fall apart no matter who is in charge. Everyone puts their faith in something. What do you have your faith in? My faith is not in myself, I am a man of many faults saved by the amazing grace of a loving Savior who came to save sinners like me. I hope and pray, no matter what side you are on, that you find life in Christ, for their is nothing else that matters.

"I am the way, I am the Truth, I am the light. No one comes to the Father except through me." Jesus words in scripture

12/22/2019 4:08:37 PM

DKrus

Cheshire Ma USA

It only blind if you listen and believe Chuck and Nancy, with out listening to any other side of the story. Because of an injury I was able to be home and watch the impeachment procedings,it was shamful to say the least how Adam Schiff and than later Jerry Nadler just plan ignored what the witness's said and silence the witness's when they thought they might say something that was against what they were trying to do. I listened to everything both sides said. It wasn't anywhere close to what has been portrayed on the nightly news [they just played edited sound bites of what they wanted the american people to hear mostly anti-Trump] very sad for a supposed anti bias media. And if anyone with an open mind { Not F+T or Scott} wacthed all of it it is easy to see who is really trying to influence the 2020 election, all on the tax payers dime!

12/22/2019 4:09:08 PM

Frank and Tina

South East

Gourdzilla you post: " 3 plus years and counting of daily posting your contempt for YOUR president (he is your president, right?) is completely fine but if someone states a few things your own party is guilty of it is considered hatefull? "

If you paid attention then you will have noticed that the liberal point of view is hopelessly outnumbered on BP. And if you read many of those postings which you obviously did, since you referred to them as " misrepresentations of everything under the sun" in a previous post, then you undoubtedly have noticed that a reoccurring group of staunch Trump supporters was always there to tell me how wrong I was, and how amazing Trump really is. How evil and unpatriotic liberals are, how evil and corrupt the Clinton's are and because they have no real dirt on Obama, they can only bash his policy decisions.

12/22/2019 4:14:18 PM

Frank and Tina

South East

For every time I highlighted Trumps incompetence, indecency and immorality I was always treated on a waterfall of hatred consisting usually of the following: Name calling: libtards, demtards etc. Clinton bashing, Obama bashing, fox news narratives: "They wonna take your guns away" " immigrants over Americans" and alt right conspiracy theories that 5 year old could debunk. NEVER have I heard somebody being able to successfully defend his over 13435 lies and misleading claims. Though all are masters at ignoring and looking the other way.
Conservatives in general but also on BP have such a deep seeded hatred against Hillary that even now, 6 years after her last government Job ended, its still the number conservative reply: "yea but what about Hillary". How pathetic is that?

Just read thru this thread that was about an op ed in a Christian publication rebuking Trump. Now count how many times Hillary Clinton is used as an excuse for Donald Trumps actions and you'l be in awe and marvel the conservative mindset.

I even was told I was trash and to swallow a bullet on here once. So Gourdzilla, if you think I,m hateful and contemptuous take of your partisan christian glasses that your looking thru and re-read some of these postings. People usually gang up on me, since Trump has many fans among growers.

Use some of that rational thinking.

12/22/2019 4:14:27 PM

bnot

Oak Grove, Mn

i am independent F&T....without you here there would be much less discussion. You have my support...even though I don't agree with you more than 50% of the time. I have to give you much credit though...I think you are hanging in there...even though you have probably 3-1 against your views.

12/22/2019 4:38:54 PM

Spudley (Scott)

Alaska

The light will be time. As time goes by more things will be revealed. Donald Trump will be held to account. Not only was he impeached he was a corrupt president and a morally bankrupt person.

12/22/2019 5:35:46 PM

Spudley (Scott)

Alaska

Let's not forget he has said publicly many times he has never asked for forgiveness. Sounds like to me something the devil would say.

12/22/2019 5:39:54 PM

Spudley (Scott)

Alaska

Donald Trump has no history of going to church. He has spent more time on the golf course since he has become president than he ever has going to Church. But I get it you think he's going to help overturn Roe versus Wade, dream on. Thinking that would be liking to doing away with the second amendment, ain't going to happen. But I get it he's the devil but he's your devil. You'll follow him all the way to the gallows.

12/22/2019 5:57:38 PM

G. Kins

Pirates of the Pacific

I appreciate honest discussion and I am sorry if I dont come accross that way.
I dont want to appologize for anyone else, but do forgive us... truly none of us are perfect.
And then go ahead and resume bashing Trump 100% of the time no matter what he does and resume not ever being critical of any dems...

12/22/2019 6:14:34 PM

PumpkinBrat

Paradise Mountain, New York

All you have to do Frank is look how great America is doing since Trump became President. That's all that matters to the American people. Who cares if Mr. Trump has no Christian history. Many people come to the Lord at a later time in life. I know many who where real bad asses, but now through God they have changed to be come great people in many ways. He who lives to rant on and on about someone past, is someone living in darkness and not living someone future who has seen the light of life

12/22/2019 6:58:03 PM

Iowegian

Anamosa, IA BPIowegian@aol.com

When I was growing up, the country was divided over a disastrous, unjust war. Over 50,000 of our young people died, many more were wounded or emotionally scarred. We were killing over a thousand Asians every day. Our people were being drafted, forced into a war over a phony domino theory. When people finally got through to the government, they stopped it. There was amnesty, the division ended.

Now the division in the country is over who is going to run thing. Which side gets to call all of the shots. Which side gets stomped into the mud. Who gets all of the power and money. Greed is the root of all of it.

Problem is, there is a lot more to worry about. We are in wars all over the planet. We were spending more on war than the next 20 countries, but that wasn't enough We now have a bigger war budget, and we are spreading war into space. Drug cartels are spreading war throughout our nation. We are being invaded by hordes of illegal immigrants, and we are expected to take care of all of them. We are murdering babies every day. How many Nobel Prize scientists, doctors, Einsteins have been snuffed out before birth?

None of that matters. All we seem to want is to win the political battle. Impose our will on everyone else. Crush our opponents. Lie, cheat, slander, what ever it takes to win.

The people elected someone from outside this sewer to fix the problems. What happened? They descended on him like a pack off rabid, starving sewer rats. Out for blood. They thought they had kept all of the outsiders under control, but one sneaked in on them. If Trump had infiltrated and taken over the democrat party, it would be the republicans at his throat. It doesn't matter. Outsiders are not welcome in the swamp.

12/22/2019 7:35:08 PM

bnot

Oak Grove, Mn

Partisan politics is the worst problem today. In free thinking elective bodies....a percentage of democrats would vote for republican proposals and a certain amount of republicans would vote for democrat proposals. As it is today....It is nearly 100% partisan. It is not healthy. Elective officials..do not think for themselves..the party will tell you which way to vote. The only candidate that i talked with told me that she promoted bipartisan thinking was one I voted for. And she won by a landside for state legistlature. From an independent perspective, this great divide in party leaves me no candidate to vote for.

12/22/2019 8:00:25 PM

DKrus

Cheshire Ma USA

Still waiting for the libral light Scott is talking about and Nancy is still trying to make up a light after 3 years of trying to impeach him
!! LOL

12/22/2019 10:28:04 PM

MCPUMPKIN

Usa

LOL, Praising those who do ONE thing you agree with!
Why flip my burgers, and call me an illegal alien!

12/23/2019 7:56:51 PM

Gourdzilla

San Diego, Ca.

Frank, lets make a deal ok? I will take off my Christian blinders as soon as you take off your liberal blinders. Deal? I didn't think so. I get that you are passionate about the liberal agenda and all but by posting contemptuous statements it really isn't hard to figure out why you draw the ire of so many on here. Look, as an example you started this post in a contemptuous manner taking a swipe at Christians. As you opened, "It took a while but their seared conscience finally kicked in." So, if a Christian supports Trump then they have a seared conscience because they don't fall in line with your way of thinking? Contempt, ignorance or both? Sainthood is not the standard for choosing or supporting a president.
Interesting that you bring up that you don't like being labeled Libtard, Demtard and so on but in the same sentence you label Trump with derogatory labels yourself as if he's not a person also. How does that make you any better than those who said things about you? Look Frank, I'm not trying to make this a bash Frank post. Sometimes you need to step back and ask yourself if you might be doing something that causes people to act in a certain way toward you. Just thought I would put that out there. I hope that helps you.

12/24/2019 1:54:48 AM

Frank and Tina

South East

Gourdzilla, I don't have a liberal agenda. Never had. I hold both liberal and conservative views and they go hand in hand in my life. If anything, I try to be pragmatic and can be as lenient and flexible in my thinking as they come. I,m not a hostage to any ideology, religion or conviction. I try to look at the facts, context and the information available and go from there.

When I see our President I see a man unfit for office. In my opinion there has not been just one indication but there has a title wave of reasons for not supporting or voting for this man. And if there might have been thought of giving him a shot at it before the 2016 election, then by now it should be clear that that was a mistake. I also see an electorate apparently and willingly blind to his infractions and willing to bend and some even break their moral compass enticed by populist rhetoric designed to rally support and votes.

I believe it would be good for some of those supporting him to be introspective. To cast aside ones standard for decency and good behavior just because a morally bankrupt politician with no affiliation or set philosophy has decided to give in to some of your core values for the sake of acquiring your vote is the epitome of hypocrisy for me. For you however this is debatable and justifiable. For me its not.

I also find it hypocrite that you mention me taking a swipe a Christians with the seared conscience remark while at the same time you call the writer of the editorial a political hack just because he doesn't share your positive opinion of Trump. A classic example of the pot blaming the kettle.

In reality, the swipe was meant only for those Christians who look the other way and support Trump because he gives them what they want on a few issues while at the same time they are appalled and disappointed by his personal behavior.

Thats a Faustian bargain that does not command respect.


12/27/2019 12:28:50 PM

Frank and Tina

South East

Then you say: "Sainthood is not the standard for choosing or supporting a president."

So what is? What if; Trump had a neutral stance on abortion and would try to meet both sides half way. What if he wasn't so overly and un-apologetically pro Israel but was critical on occasion while sometimes being able to see the Palestinian side. What if he was for LGTB rights and its progress?

Something tells me that Christian judgement would be much harsher and a lot less forgiving when it comes to Trump if he would not court your votes with all those core values being met and waved in your face as voting bate.

Prior to his run for president he was never vocal about religion or any of this, that was, until he had need for the evangelical vote. That's where HE saw the light.

So his stance towards evangelicals/Christians is obviously manufactured and designed to gain as many votes as possible. That's how a run for the presidency goes, a campaign plans how to sway a certain demographic. And each demographic has their core values, the more you can meet those, the more votes you'l get. It doesnt need to be true or authentic, its just needs to work. So when its so blatant and in your face like in the case of Trump and the evangelical voter its hard for me to believe that people actually go for it and can't see thru his charade.

As far as the bashing goes, its never a wrong time to say the right thing. Unlike politicians i don't need to act, or lie, I can speak my mind freely. I don't need your vote.

12/27/2019 12:29:01 PM

Spudley (Scott)

Alaska

I think you're giving the Republicans too much credit Frank and Tina. Don't you remember when President Obama would propose Republican ideas and Republicans would reject them. This isn't about Good vs Evil right vs wrong Christian vs non-Christian this is pure tribalism. You're either on my team or you're on their team.

12/27/2019 3:01:33 PM

Iowegian

Anamosa, IA BPIowegian@aol.com

Spudley, what republican ideas Obama propose? DACA? TPP? Fast and Furious? Paris Climate Accord? Iran nuke deal? $150 Billion in cash to Iran? His FBI director giving Hillary a free pass on carelessness with top secret material? His AG having a tarmac meeting with Slick Willy when Hillary was under investigation? Telling the country that the poor economy was the new normal, that the jobs wouldn't be coming back? Sending a message to Putin that he would have more flexibility after he is re-elected? That is a whole lot of important stuff that definitely were NOT GOP ideas.

You are right about this devolving into tribalism. It started with the republicans going after Slick Willy. He lost money on Whitewater, was nothing there to investigate. But they caught him with his pants down and lying about it. What democrats are doing now is just revenge. Russian collusion was proved to be nothing, so they looked for something else. Caught Trump trying to investigate Biden bragging about holding up money to Ukraine for personal gain. Accuse him of doing just what Biden bragged about. OK if they do it, but no one else can.

I don't need any votes, either. When Obama condoned his AG sending guns to Mexican drug cartels, our enemies, and one was used to kill a border guard, he became guilty of treason. When he created DACA, he decided that he was not going to execute the laws of the land, in violation of his oath of office. He also assumed legislative powers that are reserved to Congress. He violated the constitution. He deserved to be impeached, thrown out of office and disqualified from ever holding any office again. Anyone who defends these actions, in my mind, has no credibility when attacking anything that Trump has done.

12/27/2019 6:57:57 PM

bnot

Oak Grove, Mn

hmmmm.... reading, and thinking about responding..and then thinking better not to....ooops, getting distracted...how am I going to pay for my daughter to go to debate nationals. This is difficult...you all are good. Is counter-point coming from one sentence or the majority persuasive thought of the post. Keep everything at a high level...and you will keep me reading.

12/27/2019 9:01:03 PM

Frank and Tina

South East

8 years of obstructionism Iowegian.
Not three with the first two years controlling both congress and the senate like Trump.

No Economy in the ditch with a crashed housing market failing banks and large multinationals going under.

No republican help in recovery what so ever in the recovery, zero, nothing but no votes and obstruction. After all bringing Obama down and keeping him a one term president was more important then fixing the country. Forcing Obama's hand to expand executive power and find other solutions to save the country.
Thats where the tribalism started. Good ole Mitchie McConnel playing partisan politics like he does best.

Instead Trump got handed a recovered economy that was steadily creating new jobs with an unemployment of under 4.5% and all that without a free tax handout to the rich and wealthy further crippling federal income. The stock was up already, but as it kept growing it all of sudden became Trumps achievement, lol.

Then Trump decided giving more to rich would trickle down to the poor and everything would magically work itself out, who cares about debt after all. And Poof, corporate welfare was a fact. Its all gone up in smoke by now.

Apples and pears, with the actions of one not excusing the ones of the other.

12/27/2019 9:22:13 PM

Spudley (Scott)

Alaska

Well said Frank and Tina. Like I said they know what Obama tried to do and was blocked at every turn. They want to pretend like they don't but they do. It's tribalism that's all it is.

12/28/2019 2:15:20 AM

roger80

Susquehanna Pa

The Republican Party and Trump’s main goal is to repeal and reverse all the good that Obama did. Why would anyone want to go back to polluting our land, rivers, streams, lakes, oceans and air? Doesn’t anyone remember how polluted the Great Lakes used to be? I do. The Lackawanna River in Pa. was severely polluted from coal mine drainages, which was the largest source of pollution of the Chesapeake Bay. Now due to federal, state and private efforts after about 20 years its clean and back full of trout .

12/28/2019 7:32:24 AM

roger80

Susquehanna Pa

The AFA, affordable care act, slows the rise of health care cost. It does this by by providing insurance for millions and making preventive care free. Mr. Trump can’t seem to keep his campaign promise of repealing Obamacare and giving us cheaper better health care. We were also going to be able to do our taxes on a piece of paper the size of a post card. LOL. Trump knows it all if you don’t believe him just ask him he’ll tell you.

12/28/2019 7:49:39 AM

TruckTech1471

South Bloomfield, Ohio

I call bullshit Frank. Obama told us that a floundering economy was the new norm, indicating that he acknowledged it. Trump comes in and rips out all of Obama's obstructionist regulations and the market takes off. Democrats knew long ago that the way to control the citizens was to make them subjects of the government and, now that Trump has freed them by unleashing the power of the U.S. economy, Democrats can't afford to have empowered Americans and still keep their jobs.

Record markets, record employment, more aggressive trade deals, prison reform, tighter border security, record funding of NATO, and so on make us the envy of the world and you hell bent idiots would rather have the world end than admit that Trump's policies have made us the greatest and richest nation in the world. That not only defines liberalism, it makes all liberals blooming idiots and the personification of stupid.

12/28/2019 8:09:33 AM

bnot

Oak Grove, Mn

I think you are incorrect on some points TruckTech. I bought my first house during Bush term. I managed to get it right before the housing crash. When it crashed everything...I was worried. I was working for a place that was part of the automotive supply chain. Does anyone else remember the commercials "buy this car, if you lose your job, you can bring it back". Obama's actions during the first part of his term to get the economy flowing again, were decried by the republicans. I remember talking to the republican candidate running for state legislature in my district. In her mind the auto bailout was the worst thing ever. Should would have let them all fail, along with the companies that are attached to the automotive sector. Her plan, I believe would have drove the country even further down than the 1930's depression.

The economy has been on a climb since Obama was first elected. I think that Trump cannot take sole credit.

So....reading your post....I am part liberal...does that make me a blooming idiot and the personification of stupid.

name calling is not good debate technique

12/28/2019 8:45:33 AM

Frank and Tina

South East

I have to call bullshit back on you Trucktech. I saw world leaders mock Trump recently. There's no envy, there's mockery and disbelief and disdain and at times amusement at our caricature of a leader.
Age old allies have been upset, others outright betrayed and abandoned. The world know America's word under Trump means nothing anymore and trust is gone.

Obama was real and honest. Trump lives in la la land and used lies to conjure up votes. Coal is not back and manufacturing is stagnant again. The sugar high from the tax cuts is over and after industry leaders and company have filled their pockets in some case throwing some crumbs to the little people its business as usual again.

Markets were great already when Trump came in. Trump threw gasoline on. Then Trump slashed regulation, pressured the fed to lower interest, started a trade war, a tax break, all to make the rich richer. If you as a blue collar worker take that as a source of pride, then you probably don't comprehend how much he really screws you over.
His new NAFTA deal it goes so far to the left of traditional Republican views on trade that some congressional Republicans only grudgingly supported it. There are some aspects to it that Democrats have been calling for, for decades. How wonderful that you support this legislation, you can thank Nancy.

His border security plan was a cluster fudge. It was a PR stunt designed to rally and rile up his base, feeding them cheap propaganda with FOX news broadcasting "illegal criminals" and "the caravan" calling for those "dirty immigrants that stink" not to come in. In the end Trump managed to close down the government in his feeble attempt to get funding for his imaginary wall. Only Trump could have screwed up what could have been a bi-partisan accomplishment into government wide failure.

12/28/2019 10:08:34 AM

Frank and Tina

South East

And Nato? Unfortunately no other country besides the US funds their army with over 700 billion dollars a years. To expect countries the size of a small US state to spend relatively similar amounts to their army, without having The US warfare culture is unrealistic.
To endanger the only pact that kept the world safe for over 74 years and kept rogue countries and dictators/ autocrats in check is moronic and irresponsible and one of the main reasons Trump is unfit for the White House. Not every thing is transactional, not everything is a real estate deal.

I,l tell what's idiotic and stupid. Mindlessly parroting the White House's spin and propaganda without understanding context and details. That's the personification of stupid. Repeating something without verifying or even understanding it.

12/28/2019 10:08:45 AM

Porkchop(team sLamMer)

Central NY

Garbage...all garbage...rather listen to glen talk about ammonia exchange..save yer breath frank..just tell us how stupid we are every now and again...we get the point...

12/28/2019 12:47:48 PM

PumpkinBrat

Paradise Mountain, New York

You came from another country to the USA. All you do is talk garbage about everything thing going on in America.You never say anything good about living in the USA. I know people who came to America from other countries and talk nothing about how great America is and our government is the best compared to were they came from..If it's so dam bad here in America, than why don't you got back to the country you came from and stop degrading everything going on in the USA! It sounds like you went to "Know It All University" graduating with a 4.0 PGA

12/28/2019 12:58:36 PM

Frank and Tina

South East

Great arguments gentlemen, like usual, I,m impressed.

life was was good before Trump, its good now and it will be good when he's gone. He has not changed a thing for me.

I don't talk garbage Pumpkin brat. I just refuse to believe in lies and spin. What ever good he does always and I mean always gets overshadowed by his narcissism, lies and falsehoods. Unless it benefits him or somehow boasts his standing and image its not happening and he will oppose and attack.
With Obama for 8 years you guys moaned and complained but now expect leniency, understanding and admiration. Don't expect to get now what you couldn't give back then.

I,m not alone Pumpkinbrat. In case you forgot Clinton’s final tally came in at 65,844,610, compared to Donald Trump’s 62,979,636 that means there's almost 66 million that agree with me.

The idiotic part was a direct response to Trucktech's post choppie, you must have not read that. Inconvenient truth's are never fun to hear so I get your sentiment.

12/28/2019 1:35:07 PM

Smallmouth (Team Ozark)

Missouri

Frank, the fed funds rate is still up over 1.5% compared to when trump took office so it wasn’t slashed to make the “rich richer”. You can’t keep them at historic lows due to inflation. Rates are always manipulated to benefit the economy. The Dow is up over 8000 points since he took office or over a 45% increase. Unemployment is down. All this is post Obama, but has nothing to do with current policies? Fact is people like you will complain and say everything is bad until he is gone. All this arguing is pointless.

12/28/2019 2:26:54 PM

Frank and Tina

South East

A host of factors that influence stock prices, such as global economic health and consumer confidence, which are not directly within the president's purview. Despite that The Trump administration has embarked on policy goals uniquely poised to affect stock prices sure. I'l give him that.

The Dow Jones industrial average has gained about 45 percent since Trump was sworn in nearly three years ago. The Dow was up about 53 percent at this point in Obama’s presidency and a whopping 57 percent in Clinton’s early years in office. How much credit presidents deserve for market gains — or losses — remains a big debate, but Trump points to the stock market frequently as a barometer of how he’s doing as president. So he's lagging behind if compared apples to apples.

Many Wall Street analysts say Trump’s tax cuts and deregulatory push helped fuel the stock market rise in Trump’s first year in office, but they credit much of this year’s gains to the U-turn at the Fed.

Trump has repeatedly lashed out at the Fed, calling its leaders “boneheads” for keeping interest rates too high. This year, the Fed cut interest rates three times and Fed Chair Powell promised he would do whatever it takes to keep the economy humming.

Except for a 401K, the average American isn't likely to accrue substantial benefits from a sky-bound stock market under either Trump or Obama. The richest 10 percent of Americans own 84 percent of all stocks either directly or indirectly. Half of this share belongs to the richest 1 percent alone.

Perspective and context Luke, not just mindless praise.

12/28/2019 3:46:38 PM

bnot

Oak Grove, Mn

Good answer...smallmouth. With facts to make your point. I like being in the middle. Some arguments move me left...some move me right. Post christmas your post smallmouth has been the only one that moved me right.

12/28/2019 3:51:07 PM

bnot

Oak Grove, Mn

And a good comeback, from F&T. Much more enjoyable to read without the gradeschool name calling.

12/28/2019 3:52:37 PM

Porkchop(team sLamMer)

Central NY

Lol...don’t fall for the copy and paste bob...or better know as modern day journalism...any thoughts of your own frank?.,,..Collusion, Russian spy, stick market crashing, people dying in the streets, ya know, all the stuff you said would happen...tell me again about the wall that’s not being built...??...dang...weirdos

12/28/2019 4:16:40 PM

Smallmouth (Team Ozark)

Missouri

Frank, at no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

I can cut an paste too. But really, I got nothing from your response except you don’t think much of 401ks, pensions and IRAs.

12/28/2019 4:44:11 PM

OLD-ROOKIE

NILES , CALIF

There isn't ever gonna be another President Obama and there will not be A President Hillary
You Demos get over it,time to start Talken about liz Warren,
Bernie S...…………. . the people who are gonna try to run against President Trump
Trump will clean their clock at the ballot box!!!

Good luck finding something positive about them pretty sad
Trump to win

12/28/2019 4:53:40 PM

bnot

Oak Grove, Mn

Cut and paste is fine...as long as it is relative to the conversation. If you read what F&T posted...Trump was given credit for policies beneficial to stock prices. the next statement...comparison of various presidents and stock market reaction first term. Initial thought...we should elect a different president every four years. I think just numbers are not going to give a complete picture though. Clinton followed Bush 1 and Obama followed Bush 2. I can't remember much about the economy during Bush 1. The most I remember about his time was the Iraq war. For Obama...it is a good thing that it improved.The few of us left at my workplace started calling the 401k's the 201k's. If it had gone the other way...we would be thinking the dirty thirties was boom time.

401k's are very important to most people that have been working for very long. It pales in comparison to what the top 1% have, but it is all they have to avoid poverty in retirement.

I think that one of the points F&T was trying to make was the separation of the classes. The separation of classes is serious problem. Is there a republican solution to it?

Earlier, in this thread..there was a discussion of tribalism. I think this board can rise above that.

12/28/2019 5:05:57 PM

G. Kins

Pirates of the Pacific

I think the rate is not tied to inflation. For example, recent historically low rates did not cause inflation. And rising rates can cause stagflation rather than reducing inflation.
These people with economics degrees who speak to us have trouble looking at more than one variable and also they are trying to sell the idea that we need them, otherwise, what's their job? Is it possible: 1) they dont know what they are doing 2) they dont need to know what they are doing because printing money is not difficult 3) they want to remain in control, so they feel obligated to pander us with unproven theory, to create and maintain an illusion: They are smart, they know what they are doing and care, and that we need them.
My Fed rant. Its a parental role & not one based on facts? Fed audit? Didn't happen. We dont have any real knowledge. All we know is that when we whine, they give us money. A small fraction of what they give themselves.
As F&T said there is a vast disparity between Wall Street and Mr. Joe Average. The difference in wealth and power is like the difference between a parent and a child. Anyhow its hard to realize that everyday we are getting poorer relative to the wealthy it feels like a stable growing economy... but if the top of the tree gets heavier than the roots, we all know what happens.

12/28/2019 5:15:24 PM

Smallmouth (Team Ozark)

Missouri

Separation of classes is not a new issue exclusive to Trump. How do you fix it? I don’t know. But before you say tax the wealthy more consider this: only 56% of Americans pay taxes. The top 1% pays close to 40% of all taxes while the top 10% pays around 70% of income taxes. What’s the solution, tax the wealthy at 70% like AOC wants? That’s socialism and what incentive is there to work hard when you don’t have to do anything because leftist policies will give you everything for free. Who wants to borrow 200k in loans, go to school for 8 years to be a doctor when all your money made later is given to those who made a career out of gov’ t freebies?

12/28/2019 5:57:26 PM

bnot

Oak Grove, Mn

Glen, you are making me remember my education in economics. My most prominent memory of economics is going to a seminar put on by the bankers of SD. It was held in Mitchell, SD more known for the location of the corn palace. A few students from each school in the state were invited. We listened to the talks the first day...much basic information. That night..the hotel was wild...it was the biggest high school party I had ever been to. The next day, we were feeling the effects. The bankers said..it is ok...it happens every year...and then we listened to discussions of how to determine money supply...M1, M2, M3, MB.

That was 40 years ago...it was an education that i have retained. If society in the barter system, it would not matter, there are only a certain amount of physical things that can be bartered. If credit was not so predominent,It would not matter. In today's society...wealth calculation is very difficult.

If your 401k goes up in value...do you own a higher percentage of the companies. No, you do not. Technically, you own the same. Up is only good when you cash out to buy other physical assets.

Hopefully, when you are ready to liquidate, it is still up. There is the psychological effect of stock market being up. When the stock market is up, people feel more wealthy and are more apt to spend. That drives the economy up.

It is all complicated...I am glad I am not the one that has to decide how and when to tweak.

12/28/2019 6:20:18 PM

bnot

Oak Grove, Mn

I do not know the answer either smallmouth...my question was...is there a republican proposal to address the issue.

12/28/2019 6:22:41 PM

bnot

Oak Grove, Mn

Further thoughts...someone that is close to retirement...the stock market up is great. My daughter came out of her room to talk with me. I look at her and think of how this is going to affect her. When she hits adulthood, each dollar of her earning going to her 401k is going to buy a smaller share of the companies than what my dollars bought. So from her perspective...the stock market up is a down.

12/28/2019 6:34:53 PM

MCPUMPKIN

Usa

The freeways are clogged with 18 wheelers.
Huge industrial business parks are being made here.
Billions of dollars, are being invested, in disposable income, tourist venues.
Jobs are way up.
Job wants are way up.
New homes are going up everywhere.
Old dead neighborhoods are getting rebuilt and sold,rather than rented, to state supported renters.
Stock market is insanely up.
Commie China is finally starting to bend(over)on unfair trade.
Illegal border crossings are way down.
The 30year old work dogs, may be able to save money up, for their children.
And more people are buying hamburgers...........

12/28/2019 7:10:58 PM

Iowegian

Anamosa, IA BPIowegian@aol.com

Here in Iowa we are getting deluged with the wannabee democrat ads.

Crazy Bernie just keeps telling us how terrible the economy is. Record low unemployment makes it hard to sell communism.

Pocahontas is now all about corruption. She knows all about it and will stop it. Why hasn't she been doing anything about it in Congress?

Yang is going to give everyone over 18 $1000 a month. Where will he get the $3 Trillion that will cost? Will billionaires and illegal aliens get it too?get it too?

Biden tells us that Trump is incompetent but Good old Joe is ready to lead the world. Yeah, he showed us how to demand and get a quit pro quo from Ukraine.

Pete tells us that when Trump loses we will be more divided than ever and he can pick up the pieces. Is more division really good? And how can he lead when nobody really knows how to pronounce his last name?

Steyer calls Trump a criminal and will declare a national climate emergency. He is polling <1% but spending a ton of cash.

Klobuchar just says she is the only one who can beat Trump. That sure is a killer platform to run on.

Spartacus is vegan, doesn't work in #1 pork and egg producing state.

Bloomberg has a few ads but isn't serious here. I guess he is busy helping Virginia round up the guns, mobilizing the national guard to do it and increasing the prison budget for all the gun owners they plan to lock up.

We don't her much from the rest.

So, when will we get a serious challenge to Trump? Will they come up with someone who won't divide the country or turn us into the next socialist failure? One who won't turn legal gun owners into criminals. One who doesn't have hair-brained free money plans? One who has something more to run on that hate for Trump? One who isn't too old and too experienced in extorting foreign countries for personal gain?

12/28/2019 7:14:32 PM

bnot

Oak Grove, Mn

I know Iowegian...i don't have anyone to vote for

12/28/2019 7:42:57 PM

bnot

Oak Grove, Mn

give yang a bit more credit..i am influenced by my daughter "hair-brained free money" plans needs revision. What is the source of money.....

12/28/2019 7:51:10 PM

bnot

Oak Grove, Mn

i need to go to bed...instead of calling yangs plan"hair-brained free money" I would call it the "societal economical risky" plan. Risky...in the way, that things could crash. There is a chance..it could be better. Right now..I am not willing to take that risk. If I was 18 and looking towards my future...I might be a Yangster.

12/28/2019 8:35:05 PM

G. Kins

Pirates of the Pacific

Printing money doesn't erase real wealth. The only question is where all the printed money goes. Fortunately it's trickling down to the bottom rungs of the ladder but not quite. There are real social disparities that render people hopeless. Homelessness is an issue. Should the wealthy get a second home or should the homeless get a home? You can't expect people to afford $1 million dollar homes even if they are honest and hardworking... It just ain't happening. The math doesn't work.

12/28/2019 8:35:30 PM

G. Kins

Pirates of the Pacific

The reality of the housing market in the tech cities is you do have to be a millionaire to live there. Housing is a commodity, and the price is set by what the rich can afford, not what the poor can afford.

12/28/2019 8:37:18 PM

G. Kins

Pirates of the Pacific

Anyhow, if you print money and give it to the poor, it doesn't actually remove any physical wealth from the rich. If you think it does, please explain. We don't really need to pay the debt because it's just printed money.... It's not real. Right? Or is it?

12/28/2019 8:41:06 PM

G. Kins

Pirates of the Pacific

I know I'm stirring the pot.

12/28/2019 8:42:04 PM

bnot

Oak Grove, Mn

I have not made it to bed yet. Glen..it is not printing money. Very little of the money supply is actual currency. You could take everyones balance in their acounts and have a number. You could subtract all their debt and have a different number. And then you can get to the intangibles...how often is the dollar is exchanging hands. Money supply when the dollar is exchanging hands every day vs once per year is an increase in money supply. Don't ask me how they figure that one but flow is important. If you are going to inject money into society, where do you put it. Defense sector has been a common choice. Hypothetical, if you inject $1000 per month to everyone...wealth flows up. And you remove the injected amount from the wealthy that has made more because of the extra money at the bottom, you could break even and have even more a vibrant economy. Not a simple formula. Like I said...'economically risky". This country has a finite set of assets. Whether those assets cost a penny or billions is irrelevant dependent on perceived value of a dollar.

12/28/2019 9:01:18 PM

G. Kins

Pirates of the Pacific

King County spends $1 billion per year on homelessness. They get almost zero economic return because the money spent doesn't solve anything. Paying people $1000 a month to not defecate on city streets/roadsides would cost about the same and might be a better solution. Sounds stupid on the surface, but think deeper. Obviously handouts don't work but sometimes they do, for example, people will quit smoking in order to receive a measly $100 per month stipend.

There are rich people who are lazy and they don't get criticized for being leaches even though they consume more, and perhaps produce very little of value. And there are poor people who have excellent character and create real value they get treated like human refuse, basically because they have less money. I'm in favor of taxing the poor. I'm in favor of a flat rate. But I'm also in favor of criticizing the rich.

Why does Amazon pay no taxes??? Why do governments give tax breaks to the top?!!! Boeing, timber companies, even a glass factory down the road jacks up demand for electricity, and I get stuck with the bill. While they get a discounted "industrial rate".

12/28/2019 9:37:05 PM

G. Kins

Pirates of the Pacific

They jack the price up on me, because of "demand". Of course there is demand, when you give a subsidized rate to a gluttonous company just down the road.

12/28/2019 9:39:34 PM

Smallmouth (Team Ozark)

Missouri

Glenoma, your statement on hard working people not being able to afford a 1 million dollar home\property and the math doesn’t add up is very inaccurate. It does happen especially with dual income families. I’m not claiming this for myself at all, but explain mathematically as you claim it can’t happen.

12/28/2019 10:12:19 PM

G. Kins

Pirates of the Pacific

You are right. Marriage is an economic boost and most homeless people are single. No one wants to rent rooms out cheap nowadays because its hard to evict people. Ironically if evictions were earier the homeless problem would go away. I would rent a room in my house for a few hundred bucks but I cant... The reason? I dont have enough time and money to deal with the courts or getting a lawyer to evict someone, or pay for damages etc or upkeep if they became a squatter (behind on rent/ wrecking my house). So, there are plenty of houses. Anti eviction aws and lack of direct assistance is keeping people on the streets. The streets are a bad environment. Its a lose-lose for all of society to have people living on the street... Who wins from people being homeless? No one does. Give em a stipend and make renting less of a human rights issue and the problem is solved. The left doesnt know how to solve anything. Their cities are proof.

12/29/2019 12:01:45 AM

G. Kins

Pirates of the Pacific

King County is the county that contains Seattle. I am too grouchy not my best self but one more thing... When rich governments and rich people get richer, they only feel more entitled. They dont think, 'Gee now that I am rich I can afford to care about xyz'. We are conditioned to spend more on ourselves. People buy boats or other big ticket items they dont really need... rather than to say 'I dont actually need a new kitchen' they tear out their completely functional old kitchen. How can we get people to think about the big picture?
Well I should not complain about about my power bill or demand for electricity... My indoor tomato is not a necessity. Competitive growing is a luxury.
Entitlement and waste exists at every level of wealth.

12/29/2019 12:45:56 AM

G. Kins

Pirates of the Pacific

With great power comes great responsibility. Sorry for all the typos... feeling ill today.

12/29/2019 3:58:38 AM

bnot

Oak Grove, Mn

To be able to afford a million dollar house your income should be at about $220,000 per year. You would have to take out a jumbo loan which has stricter qualifications. You should have the 20% down and be able to cover the closing costs.

This is much more than median family can afford. A better measurement is the housing affordability index put out by the NAR. It is a measurement of median household income vs median single family house price. Most areas of the country, the median family can afford the median house. San Francisco, San Jose are exceptions. In Seattle, median household income is $93,500. It's HAO number is 103. Housing affordability is an issue in Seattle.

12/29/2019 5:38:16 AM

G. Kins

Pirates of the Pacific

Poverty is not the cause of the problem... These are not poor cities. Inequality coupled with rigid liberal ideology is to blame. I have seen the insanity firsthand. Its just not smart. If Democrats were more humble and not so partisan... If they really cared, they would take Trumps concern about their own ineptitude seriously? And simply... ask him for help. Their pride hurts the poor and I'd go so far as to say that the Republican party is now the party of the poor... Every liberal social policy is as outdated as Bolshevism, except maybe Yang. Its time to move forward and the Democrats are too old to move even one step forward, except Yang and Butigieg.

12/29/2019 9:19:38 AM

bnot

Oak Grove, Mn

really Glen....I question your statement...republicans are the party of the poor now?. I am waiting to hear what the republican proposal is to address the issue of separation of classes. There are proposals from the democrats. Is the republican position...or is there a denial that there is a problem?

12/29/2019 11:15:21 AM

bnot

Oak Grove, Mn

I need to proofread before hitting enter....Is there a republican position?

12/29/2019 11:16:13 AM

MCPUMPKIN

Usa

When there is a Democrat,
that actually puts all Americans first,
believes in/fights for fair trade,
believes in stopping the social destruction by addictive drug smuggling groups,
believes in stopping/slowing illegal immigration,
disagrees with free ride social programs, I would most likely vote for him/her.

What happened to those Democrats? They did exist at one time. B.C.(1993)I believe.

12/29/2019 12:09:52 PM

bnot

Oak Grove, Mn

wow, McPumpkin...in all these years I have read your thoughts, I would have never thought you would consider voting Democrat. Right now, i think the democratic party is controlled by the far left...the republicans are controlled by the far right. Those that think in common sense in the middle have no choice. Let's hope in the future, that we get some politicians either democrat or republican that better represent the character of this country.

12/29/2019 2:51:48 PM

bnot

Oak Grove, Mn

hmmmm..what happened to trucktech...his post was the one that got me fired up....I certainly will debate my personification of stupid with him.

12/29/2019 6:46:39 PM

bnot

Oak Grove, Mn

and mcpumpkin, you are a friend..thank you for your response on an above thread...I am not far off from your views. but i see things at a bit different perspective than you. We have exchanged words for over 6 years. Lets try to be independent..i argue for best solution.

12/29/2019 7:20:39 PM

G. Kins

Pirates of the Pacific

I don't know what the Republican plan is boot other than to put people ahead of ideology, and put the economy ahead of social engineering.

12/30/2019 12:56:56 AM

G. Kins

Pirates of the Pacific

I have reluctantly embraced the idea that jobs are more important than the environment. If people's jobs are destroying the environment, then good solutions are needed. Shipping those jobs elsewhere is a knee jerk reaction, it's not a good solution.

12/30/2019 1:03:02 AM

G. Kins

Pirates of the Pacific

And it drives me nuts that we spend so much and consume so much, on the surface we are so wealthy, yet when as soon as it comes to solving real social problems the national debt becomes a conceptual roadblock.

12/30/2019 1:07:22 AM

G. Kins

Pirates of the Pacific

Poor editing.
I hope we are wise enough to find & elect people who are good people.

12/30/2019 1:22:27 AM

Fissssh

Simi valley, ca

christians !!! Come on really !!! A good thing you say! Don't they say if you don't believe that jesus is the son of god you are going to hell ? So 6 billion people are going to hell & they the 1 billion are going to heaven ,. And many of the believers have got children who do not believe ! So while there in heaven having a great time there kids are burning in excruciating pain !!! Thats a selfish bunch of people !!!

1/4/2020 7:23:50 PM

Fissssh

Simi valley, ca

No i'm not an atheist eather ! But i'm certainly not ever going to be a christian, They will smile in your face while they think your gonna burn !!! NASTY THINKING !!!!!

1/4/2020 8:03:12 PM

Smallmouth (Team Ozark)

Missouri

Fisssh, why do you have to use so many exclamation points? You come off as a 13 year old girl crying over a boy she met at the mall who told her she has cankles.

1/4/2020 8:19:25 PM

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