Message Board - BigPumpkins.com

Upper Strasburg, PA

Don’t overlook the 1885 Barron as a selection of 2145 genetics. 28% heavy to the current chart is insane. The pollinator was a selfed 2145 that grew a 1984 for Don this year and a 2005 for Karl Haist. Check out the cross section photos in Don’s grower diary and imagine that thing taping north of 2400lbs.

12/17/2018 3:48:33 AM

Upper Strasburg, PA

Also- it’s worth noting that 25% of the 2145’s ancestry is the 2009 Wallace, so developing a “non-2145” line from 2009 Wallace genetics isn’t very far outside the box. Maybe go back several more generations and find a contemporary of the 2009’s ancestors that has fallen into obscurity somehow. Something like the 1556 Werner might be a really good starting point. I’m sure the germination rate of those would still be good enough to get several of them to grow and see how they compare to current genetics. There’s also the 1291 Rodonis.... 1156 Larsen x 1370 Rose. That 1156 might have been the best 898 Knauss that was ever grown and the 1291 was the biggest 1156 offspring and I believe it was the winner at Topsfied that year.

12/17/2018 4:04:32 AM

Cuerbitrix

Berlin, Germany

..and don`t forget:
-1327 Rea13 (1498 Werner12 x 979 McMillan12)
-1266 Jany13 (1634 Werner10 x self)

12/17/2018 6:15:33 AM

Team Wexler

Lexington, Ky

What will be the cost of the seed pack?

12/17/2018 9:23:56 AM

BReeb

Orient, Ohio

Are you going to only cross those HD seeds or are you looking for some to be selfed again? Awesome project!

12/17/2018 9:39:10 AM

Ema96

Italy

This could be a very interesting project! The last season I grew a 1381 Checkon in a 150sqft spot and crossed it with the 1625.5 Gantner. If someone is interested in this "non-2145" old genetic cross I have a few seeds left to share. Of course my cross should make white or pinkish pumpkins and not HD contenders.

12/17/2018 4:32:44 PM

Grittyville, WA

Thats a heck of a cross Ema. I like the idea of crossing back into older stock. The selfed x selfed ones can do very well. If there are no genetic defects, yes they will perform very well & more consistently. I like watching the auctions though because there are many good seeds. The one that may do very well next year might be a fifteen dollar seed. At this point the breeding seems mostly random and I think its great that anyone would try to be more serious about it.

12/17/2018 6:17:57 PM

Upper Strasburg, PA

1625 Gantner & 1381 Checkon make up 75% of the 2145.

12/17/2018 9:06:44 PM

Andy W

Western NY

Tom - I agree that there is some significant 2009 in the 2145 background, but I do worry about getting too far removed from the power that modern genetics has. Next year at this time, there will likely be a few seeds that will already be 100% 2145 going back 4 generations. I'm thinking that would qualify as being statistically removed from a divergent and successful 2009 line.

Brian - The goal is to cross these seeds, although I believe Joe is planning on selfing his 1211.

12/17/2018 10:16:50 PM

Nic Welty

That State Up North

It would be great to have a targeted and well planned community breeding program
I am sure you may feel growers will have a higher participation rate if you leave the plan flexible, but the results will be less focused.
I suggest limiting options to make the analysis of results more possible.
Only two seeds to be grown, those with more space replicate the plantings. Also emphasizing the need for uniformity in grower patches could be important, but given the size of replication you may never reach statistical significance.
One plant to be selfed, the other a cross between the two.
This gives year two a more clear plan as well.
If the goal is to produce the largest and most beautiful, take the approach of establishing a NIL, or two NIL lines to be crossed 6 or 8 years into the project.
You may want to take Max size and/or % heavy to pair with the max beauty. The result with enough growers and a 6-8 year plan would be introducing the desired beauty phenotypes into the max size genetics.
I wish I knew I had time to help in 2019, but I am not certain yet of my time available.

12/17/2018 10:49:03 PM

Upper Strasburg, PA

I’m not convinced that a more distantly related line that produced 1500+ in 2007 is really so distant from contemporary genetics in terms of raw potential. Maybe there has been a great leap in structural integrity thanks to the 1625 Gantner. Besides that, the major gains may be more attributable to improved performance by the growers themselves. Here’s a good example of what I’m talking about: the 723 Bobier. It was a 1999 seed that was planted all over the place for years and eventually grew a pair over 1400lbs in the mid 2000’s. The genetic potential to produce 1400+ was obviously there in 1999, but it was never unlocked until 6 years later. There may well have been 3 giant steps with the 2009, 2145, and 2624, but to acknowledge that doesn’t exclude the possibility that you could get a similar advancement from a more distant relative. At the end of the day, every viable AG seed today is just a different arrangement of 723/845 Bobier, 846 Calai, 898 Knauss, and 712 Kuhn anyway.

12/18/2018 6:01:56 AM

Upper Strasburg, PA

The Joe Pukos 1420/1446 crosses (998 & 1231) are really where the modern selection began to diverge from the other Bobier/Calai/Knauss/Kuhn combinations of the time. Pretty much everything now has either Joe Jutras’s 998 or Bill Rodonis’s 1231 in it, and often times it’s both.

12/18/2018 6:16:17 AM

What if we All made a consorted effort to Never plant a seed from Any pumpkin under 2000 pounds? That would narrow down the gene pool & theoretically keep us progressing twords the goal of a new WR.

Just some food for thought...

12/18/2018 12:03:01 PM

Big T Hoff

Hadley Ny

What an absurd idea Dirt. That would eliminate almost all growers. A bunch of us grow ORANGE and not worried about size. Most of us live in areas where you can't grow large. From the Middle of the Adirondacks in Upstate NY.

12/18/2018 2:30:28 PM

That would be 35+ pumpkins to choose from in just the last 2 years. Including an extremely beautiful orange grown by Deb this year!
There's nothing absurd about it.

12/18/2018 2:56:25 PM

I'm talking about growing a new WR! There is no WR for orangest or prettiest pumpkin. So anyone growing for strictly those reasons obviously wouldn't be a part of the effort

12/18/2018 3:24:15 PM

Sure, the little guys will never pass up the big boys and they couldn't grow thier own seeds but Everybody's gains would go up, up, up!
Eventually, in theory, they would All be 2000 pounders...
It's a simple Best X Best breeding strategy.
Growing from sub-toners is using inferior stock

12/18/2018 3:35:08 PM

Big T Hoff

Hadley Ny

Sorry Andy..didn't mean to screw up your post

12/18/2018 5:33:25 PM

Interesting idea. This all goes back to Gregor Mendel.

https://www2.palomar.edu/anthro/mendel/mendel_1.htm

12/19/2018 5:56:56 AM

Ithaca, NY

Dirt, I see what you're saying; however, the Best X Best strategy only works to a certain extent. Eventually, you will exhaust all genetic variation and you will be selecting on variation caused by the environment, which is generally not heritable. This has probably already happened to some extent.

One of the goals of this project is to create some stable lines with many fixed beneficial alleles, which is good. I am working with this group, and others, on a comprehensive pedigree analysis that I hope will help provide some insight as well.

Farther ahead of this project we may need to consider some wider crosses, maybe even crossing outside of the AG gene pool, to ensure long-term gains. Howard Dill did a great job, but he started from a narrow base which probably didn't contain the best version of every gene.

12/19/2018 8:46:52 AM

Tom K

Massachusetts

An interesting footnote in the article that Paul shared is that Mendel did most of his work with pea plants because he could grow two generations per year. If there is enthusiasm for a coordinated effort of growing selected seeds then it would be great to encourage teams in the southern hemisphere to participate and try for two generations per year.

12/19/2018 8:48:49 AM

Ithaca, NY

Tom, I like the way you're thinking! This is often referred to as "shuttle breeding".

https://www.seedquest.com/forum/b/BorlaugNorman/shuttlebreeding.htm.

12/19/2018 8:54:35 AM

Ithaca, NY

https://normanborlaugagriculturalhero.weebly.com/shuttle-breeding.html

12/19/2018 8:56:14 AM

Orangeneck (Team HAMMER)

Eastern Pennsylvania

I went to the st Croix website and I only found the 1211 seed for sale not the other two?

12/20/2018 10:49:06 AM

jsterry

East Tennessee

Any pics and numbers for Jennifer’s kin? I found the other two.

12/20/2018 12:18:19 PM

iceman

Eddyz@efirehose.net

pics in my diary

12/20/2018 7:03:01 PM

Upper Strasburg, PA

I’m going to have to dig in to that information this weekend, Chris. Thank you for sharing that. Now I have something to do with my extra days off of work this Christmas week. :)

12/21/2018 7:02:18 AM

Upper Strasburg, PA

Another thing worth considering is that we’ve already seen a multigenerational 2009 Wallace selection- the 2323 Meier. That seed has been planted by many of the top growers in the world and hasn’t produced anything over 1900lbs. Its top five progeny are 1887.2, 1865.1, 1750, 1745, and 1724. I think that the 2323 is worthwhile in breeding because it consistently produces heavy % OTC and it figures to have some good genes with the world record pedigree, but it has left a lot to be desired while being consistently outperformed by other plants that were grown by the same growers in the same season. If you’re envisioning an ideal selection of exclusively 2009 Wallace genetics, you’re essentially envisioning the 2323 Meier and we’ve already been there and done that.

12/21/2018 7:20:48 AM

Grittyville, WA

Truckin, yes it’s strange that some like the 1625 don’t make the biggest weights themselves but are important components of breeding the ones that do. There are others like you mention, that have good genes for going heavy, but for whatever reason, must be outcrossed to get the biggest weights. Unless someone is really smart... it’s good soil, good weather, good luck. I think some of the long time growers might have good insights.

But even if we all act like monkeys with typewriters... we are on track to get very near 3000 no question about it. No need for Shakespeare!

12/21/2018 8:18:14 AM

Grittyville, WA

The clone idea would be popular and might even pay for itself. Who wouldnt be up for planting a clone from a 2400 lb pumpkin and that would open up many more options for crosses. Why cant we send clones of the best plants to the southern hemisphere and grow the crosses of these who wouldnt want a Geddes x Haist or a Daletas x Paton seed to plant this year. Well I have said too much as usual. I need to worry about hitting 1500 first... then I can worry about 3000.

12/21/2018 8:55:57 AM

Upper Strasburg, PA

Clone crosses have been done in North America. I doubt that a project like that could be made international. There are tight restrictions on shipping live plant material. Plus you would need to have a method of shipping that would be successful and a Southern Hemisphere grower who wants to dedicate his or her resources to growing clones for the purpose of producing seed for Northern Hemisphere growers.... there might be someone interested in doing that for a certain price, but probably not as an act of philanthropy.

12/21/2018 9:11:37 AM

Green Gene

Putnam Ct.

Pictures of My 1576.5 can be seen in my diary.

12/21/2018 9:51:07 AM

Grittyville, WA

The genetics would get confusing because you would have offspring in the same year like the 220 Debacco 2013 had a lot of 2013 progeny. I guess it's not that confusing when you get used to it... But the 220 Debacco says it has the 1409.5 Miller in it... Which it really doesn't, right? So it gets complicated. I'm sure there is a grower in the Southern Hemisphere who would like to grow clones of the top plants. I realize that shipping might be impossible so then the alternative is an overwinter indoor grow with lights. I don't get why they couldn't be grown in Arizona over the winter at least at a lower elevation... Like Phoenix? Or Southern CA. June in Washington is about the same as January down there!

12/21/2018 10:18:16 AM

cojoe

Colorado

Glen the 220 debacco does have 1409.5 miller.Its a cross between a plant from 2009 seed and pollinated by plant that was a cutting from the plant that grew the 2009.

12/22/2018 12:52:48 AM

pumpkinpal2

Syracuse, NY

wow, funny and, at first confusing, the 1725 was FROM 2009...the YEAR.

12/22/2018 1:25:22 AM

Upper Strasburg, PA

How about breeding out a selection of the extreme heavy 1625 Gantner offspring? 1965 Brandt (+29%) and 1692 McMullen (+28%) come to mind. Increasing density is going to be a major factor in getting to 3000lbs. We’re already seeing that it’s high % heavy pumpkins that are pushing the upper limits over the last several years.

12/22/2018 6:46:19 AM

I would guess that all the 2000+ pounders exhibit very few negative genes simply by the fact that they would never have reached that size if they weren't carrying the best combination.
It's for that reason that they should be used to progress pumpkins as a whole.
Less chance at deleterious genes being perpetuated which is always the biggest concern when breeding anything.

12/24/2018 12:52:46 PM

Grittyville, WA

My bad cohoes thanks for always being a source of good info.

12/24/2018 1:43:14 PM

Grittyville, WA

*cojoe

12/24/2018 1:44:00 PM

Plymouth, MN

I don't think you can make any such conclusion about 2000+ pumpkins not carrying bad genes. You see the pumpkins that get to scale. Hypothetically you could have a situation where 90% of the fruit splits and you'd never tell because the bad outcome doesn't get reported and recorded well. It's good for the future if some diversity is thoughtfully maintained.

12/24/2018 3:47:57 PM

I guess the Biggest reason I'm not wild about this project is that it seems like the foundation stock is all so small. Aren't they like 1/2 the size of what we should be shooting for?

12/24/2018 3:56:46 PM

Plymouth, MN

The project is selecting for specific genetic traits. HD award color is the focus of this lot. Once pure breeding lines are established, it becomes easier to deliberately mix traits.

12/24/2018 4:10:06 PM

Grittyville, WA

I'm with you _dirt_ its just hard for me to get real excited when there are going to be huge and beautiful ones randomly coming out of the big 2145 mcmullen crosses... I think the Big Gantner HD is just the first... More will follow. 1937 Urena and 2066 Geddes would be good place to start in my own opinion...not trying to say mine is the best opinion. There is more than one possible route to the top of the mountain and it may only take one committed person. Mr. Holub's work on squash proves this...although more work is needed because the white gene keeps popping up! Little guys like me probably dont matter. Likely what matters is keeping top growers involved. Well thats team buzzkill for you.

12/24/2018 6:19:56 PM

Upper Strasburg, PA

The 2066 Geddes grew a very nice orange pumpkin for Ted Cope 2 years ago. He weighed it st Altoona- I believe it was 1253lbs, which was a personal best and was in the neighborhood of 10% heavy.

12/25/2018 4:18:48 AM

spudder

Is it not the goal of this particular project to try and get seeds that would have a good shot at growing a nicely shaped decent sized , very orange pumpkin when you plant the seed .
Right now , it is more of a crap shoot for a pumpkin to match all those traits from the mother. This would make it more like FP's. You might have a better chance of getting what you want when you plant. Is this not what the commercial developers of new FP lines do ?

12/25/2018 7:55:06 AM

Its not really making a huge assumption to think that, cjb. If a plant was plagued with too many problems it could never produce such a sizable fruit.

I get it though, this groups goal is to make HD's not WR's...

12/25/2018 1:09:12 PM

Ithaca, NY

There probably isn’t that much genetic load in modern giants, to the degree that they can't produce sizable fruit, but this doesn’t mean that all the best alleles are in the top AGs or in the best combinations. Given the drive to grow “hot seeds” many of the biggest AGs are highly-related, so intermating them is less likely to produce even bigger AGs. Ideally, we could cross AGs with the highest genetic value and that are the most genetically distant. The idea here is that if you recombine two lines that are good for different reasons you can get something better out the other end. Unfortunately, we can never know the true genetic value of an AG—the biggest AG could be big because of a superb environment or management and not because it has a high genetic value. Further, lines that are perceived as having the highest genetic value are usually grown by the most experienced growers. This leads to an upward bias in our estimation of genetic value for the biggest AGs. Anyway, all of this is just to say that I wouldn’t put too much stock in only crossing the biggest AGs.

12/25/2018 3:53:27 PM

Plymouth, MN

Dirt- Pumpkins that make it to scale are winners, yes, but that doesn't tell you what imperfections there are in their genetics. I've only been growing a season so I can't speak from much experience, but what percent of pumpkins split? 30%? As far as I know, there's no way to tell whether there's a genetic risk factor with the current data because the fate of all seeds that are planted is not reported.

There are a few traits that are fairly easy to track based on data in Pumpkin Fanatic. Size, color, skin texture come to mind. However, this data is also limited to the pumpkins that make it to scale. It would be useful if growers would track each seed's fate in a little more detail--how many split, abort, have dill rings, ribbon vines, etc. The community could then track (and potentially select against) bad outcomes.

Chris also has an excellent point about the non-genetic factors that contribute to the biggest fruit.

I did a little number crunching earlier this year. For 2016, 2017, and 2018, I tried to pull out every example of a grower that got a 2145 AND a second pumpkin to scale. Presumably this list represents "top" growers and you have 1:1 pairs of pumpkins that were grown in the same weather and generally same soil. The results are below.

I came away with two conclusions--1) 2145 did outperform the other seeds (it may be "special"), though the difference wasn't always significant. 2) The difference between 2145 and other was amplified in '17 and '18. Since the seed is the same, this likely represents extra grower effort/attention on these high value seeds and illustrate how environment matters.

2016
McMullen    Average    1458.7
McMullen    StDev    572.4
Other    Average    1339.8
Other    StDev    495.9
2017
McMullen    Average    1550.6
McMullen    StDev    415.2
Other    Average    1364.8
Other    StDev    346.4
2018
McMullen    Average    1519.5
McMullen    StDev    407.4
Other    Average    1272.5
Other    StDev    507.7

12/26/2018 10:02:18 AM

I realize that environmental factors influence fruit size.
It's like fat girls!
Some girls are fat because they eat too much, but some girls are fat because their Momma was fat...
What I'm saying is that the Big ones have already survived the gauntlet of growing, they've been tested by nature & they came out as the best!
So you'd have to think that the seeds inside are capable of showing similar results.

12/26/2018 1:00:06 PM

Grittyville, WA

smart ideas and observations cjb... @dirt I am more suspicious of the seeds that have never hit 2k. One that has 2k in the background...maybe it didnt eat enough. But if a top grower like LaRiviere gets 1500 out of one that and 2k out of others... Then you start to see eating was not the problem, lack of a big momma is the problem... One thing I have learned is we are all fairly smart and the top growers are smart... This is old news to the best growers...they know what they are doing.

12/26/2018 1:47:53 PM

Grittyville, WA

Any group effort that tracks breeding results and publishes them will be a helpful to understanding other traits... even if size is not the primary goal. Its a lovely idea. Now it just comes down to hard work.

12/26/2018 2:01:38 PM

Sorry, but The priorities are way out of whack.
Do y'all anticipate weighoffs to become pumpkin pageants in the future?
Are they gunna start awarding down multiple places for prettiest pumpkin?
If you're looking to grow porch pumpkins, Bubba & Jackson already have that covered...
But to each his own, So Best of Luck on your Quest

12/26/2018 2:23:55 PM

WiZZy

President - GPC

Come to Green Bay to the BIG SHOW, This genetics project is on the Saturday Agenda, to be hosted by Professor Andy Wolf, and Joe Ailts and a few others... You wont want to miss out being present for this topic!

12/26/2018 2:44:22 PM

Plymouth, MN

Glenomkins- Trouble I have with this thinking is that there aren't a ton of fruit that get planted much and its hard to know what fraction of these plantings ever had a remote chance of reaching 2k. Looking at the top 10 pumpkins before the 2018 season, only 6/10 have been grown more than 10 times.

Pumpkin    Progeny    2000+    1800+    %1800+
2624.6 Willemijns 2016    22    4    6    27.27%
2363 Holland 2017    54    0    4    7.41%
2323.7 Meier 2014    45    0    2    4.44%
2269.4 Paton 2017    25    0    0    0.00%
2261.5 Wallace 2016    28    1    4    14.29%
2252.3 Paton 2016    2    0    0    0.00%
2230.5 Wallace 2015    50    0    7    14.00%
2228.9 Willemijns 2017    0    0    0    0.00%
2185 Brandt 2015    10    0    0    0.00%
2157 Paton 2016    3    0    0    0.00%

Meanwhile, 7/10 of this year's top 10 came from sub-2000 pumpkins (though all have some 2K+, often 2145, in their family tree).
Pumpkin    Progeny    2000+    1800+    %1800+
1801.2 Berrens 2016    16    1    2    12.50%
1501 Vander Wielen 2017    5    1    2    40.00%
1911 Urena 2017    2    1    1    50.00%
1875 Mendi 2017    3    1    1    33.33%
1971.5 Barlow 2017    2    1    1    50.00%
1937 Urena 2016    31    2    4    12.90%
1928.5 Daletas 2017    12    1    2    16.67%

12/26/2018 2:46:49 PM

Grittyville, WA

Sounds good Wiz... I'll pay a hundred bucks for the video of the whole conference! But perhaps what happens in Wizconzin should stay in Wizconzin:) Can I bring five kids six and under... Is that allowed? :) Cjb... I love pumpkin stats... If you start up a new thread i'm in. My conclusion is collectively we are fairly smart in our choices. To go beyond that... Its a discussion worthy of its own thread.

12/26/2018 3:41:12 PM