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Grittyville, WA

I notice a couple of big east coast growers didn’t get a good cover of rye going... will this affect their results? Hopefully not! Anyhow... this got me thinking since I hear a lot about mustard also.... For those who have planted both, which is better in terms of improving the following season’s results?

1/31/2018 8:02:36 AM

Germany

You should do both, mustard in summer (while giving the patch a rest from pumpkins) and just as the mustard starts with its flowers you chop it and till it under. This will kill some of the bad guys in your soil (and some good ones also, I guess). After a while you can sow rye and leave it on the patch as a winter cover crop.

1/31/2018 8:17:27 AM

Alex, IN

They both are used for differing goals. Mustard is grown to help manage soil born pathogens. Rye is grown to develop soil structure and improve fertility levels.

If you have poor soil rye will probably offer the greatest benefit. If you have heavy disease pressure then mustard will probably be better in terms of the results that follow.

1/31/2018 9:20:27 AM

New Berlin, PA

Mikkal hits the nail on the head (as I understand it). I would add that rye helps to add organic matter, probably much more so than mustard would.

http://cdn.territorialseed.com/downloads/cover-crop-chart-2017.pdf

1/31/2018 9:46:00 AM

Grittyville, WA

Mustard would not overwinter in many parts of the US? Ok I was confused because I saw a California grower use mustard in the winter i guess it’s not really possible to compare the results of rye vs mustard over the winter elsewhere. My bad.

1/31/2018 9:49:36 AM

New Berlin, PA

According to this chart, I may try buckwheat next year

1/31/2018 9:51:41 AM

Grittyville, WA

Thanks Dan. ...Looks like turnips and rye would put the most organic matter back in the soil. Rye... hardy to zone 3. Mustard to zone 7.

1/31/2018 9:57:33 AM

New Berlin, PA

Yes, that is correct. I planted mustard and rye in my patch this fall. The mustard is and has been long gone for awhile. The rye still looks good despite the snow, ice, and cold weather.

1/31/2018 10:19:31 AM

Upa Creek, MO

Am I the only 1 who grows some vetch in with their rye? I grow it since it fixes large amounts of nitrogen when tilled in before planting.

https://extension.psu.edu/hairy-vetch-as-a-crop-cover

1/31/2018 10:29:01 AM

Alex, IN

I mixed vetch, red clover, and austrian winter peas into my rye seeding last fall. All three fix a lot of N, hoping to have to add little to no N this year.

Dan, buckwheat is a great summer cover crop. Grows fast, you can grow, till and replant a new crop every 30 days or so. Don't let it go to seed, made that mistake a few years ago... lol

1/31/2018 10:56:19 AM

Alex, IN

I had actually planted the following in my cover crop this past fall...

Cereal Rye
Turnips
Tillage Radish
Red Clover
Oats
Hairy Vetch
Barley
Austrian winter peas
Rapeseed

I wanted to also include annual rye but could not source it quickly enough.

I was going for a heavy dose of diversity in my cover crop.

1/31/2018 11:01:59 AM

New Berlin, PA

Thanks, Mikkal. Maybe buckwheat is a good cover for patches that are being rested, that you'd like to really build OM?

Also, just to clarify on my earlier post. I planted cereal rye, not annual ryegrass.

1/31/2018 11:24:36 AM

Menomonie, WI ([email protected])

If you don't cut/ dry your cover crop before tilling it is a Green Manure. It adds very little to OM. If you cut,dry and till it becomes a brown carbon, this will increase your organic matter.

1/31/2018 1:26:22 PM

Alex, IN

I have grown buckwheat out ahead of a growing plant in years past. Just have to till it in with enough time to decompose a little before the plant gets to it.

For the last two seasons I have just kept my fall seeded cover crop mowed until I need to till it in ahead of the plant. Does a great job of keeping weed pressure down.

1/31/2018 1:29:29 PM

Anamosa, IA [email protected]

I found that in beefed up pumpkin soil, rye can get huge, 7' tall if you don't keep it mowed. Also, in my patch rye gets lots of rust fungus, similar to or the same as what gets on my long gourds. I have less problems with the gourds if I don't grow rye.

I like an early fall cover of oats, turnips, rape and tillage radish. Works after sweetcorn or if I lose a pumpkin plant early. I get some disease control from the brassicas, lots of OM from the oats, and it all winter kills. Just have a little carry-over from hard seed in the brassicas that takes a year or two to germinate.

1/31/2018 7:43:05 PM

Santa Rosa, CA.

I am one of the lucky ones that can grow mustard in the Winter. Right now it’s close to 4 feet tall and about to flower. I grow in pretty much the same area year after year and believe if I didn’t grow mustard my weights would be way down.

1/31/2018 8:36:27 PM

Orient, Ohio

I have noticed in trials at work that fall planted barley will out grow rye, and produces more ground cover biomass. Take tar for what is worth just something we have noticed.

1/31/2018 8:51:35 PM

Orient, Ohio

Take that for what it's worth it should say

1/31/2018 8:52:11 PM

Alex, IN

I agree with the Barley. We grow is as cover where I work. Very Hardy and gets incredibly thick. I have also read that barley can help manage nematode populations.

1/31/2018 9:14:41 PM

Orient, Ohio

Which barely, ours is a winter malting variety. We have grown spring malting barely also and it grows very well, if planted early March can still get 12-18" by may

1/31/2018 9:39:36 PM

Upa Creek, MO

Thanks Shannon, good to know

1/31/2018 9:45:54 PM

50 Acres

Would the malted barley mash from the brewery be useful. Jim

1/31/2018 10:12:51 PM

Emmetsburg, Iowa

Any good spring cover crops?

1/31/2018 11:20:07 PM

Grittyville, WA

Kibster not sure what you mean exactly but I always thought something like white clover which couldn’t overtop the pumpkin leaves couldn’t hurt much... and might help a little? Some folks like bare dirt no weeds no mulch... but then a heavy storm can be hard on the soil and spread disease possibly? Rain compacted soil won’t hold moisture well.

I’m gonna go off the deep end a little... what about a deep rooted water-conservative plant like purslane, which is probably similar to buckwheat/rhubarb (high oxalic acid). It’s very low growing, unlike buckwheat. So It could only grow like a carpet under the canopy of the pumpkin plants’s leaves.. It’s not very aggressive but here’s the catch: it does make millions of seeds which can last 20+ years in the soil.

The main thing for a spring cover crop is that it can’t possibly grow higher than the pumpkin leaves otherwise you have to worry about removing every last bit of it.

2/1/2018 4:40:23 AM

Menomonie, WI ([email protected])

Never grow your pumpkin plant into your cover crop. It traps moisture, and promotes vine rot. Bare Loose Soil is the best environment to grow a giant on.

2/1/2018 7:49:53 AM

Grittyville, WA

Linus, I somewhat agree... but I think soil splashing on the vine and leaves can be bad too. I successfully grew one into a thick stand of potatoes, but our humidity in the summer is so low... maybe where I'm at is a little different. I have no experience growing on the east coast/ Midwest so maybe my ideas are terrible. But if no one has tried it, who really knows? Check out the last pic I posted today shows a pumpkin growing into a thick stand of potatoes... This plant did require sulfur in one spot but other than that it grew a pumpkin with no further trouble. The only plant I completely lost to rot was one that was covered in dirt multiple times by a scratching hen.

I think the issue is, the vines need to be able to dry out they can't stay wet all the time. For me growing over a cover crop is an option... but that may not be true for everyone...

Things are different here... I also grew have grown more than one pumpkin blossom down into dirt. And everyone says that is not possible, everyone says the blossom end will rot. Well... check out my 2017 diary. The only one that rotted was because of a structural failure. My advice: You never know for sure what is possible until you try...

2/1/2018 9:07:47 AM

Emmetsburg, Iowa

Glem, my question is can you grow a cover crop and fill in before growing a giant pumpkin in the spring?

2/1/2018 9:27:06 AM

Grittyville, WA

My ideas might be bad, but hopefully THAT's not bad advice.

2/1/2018 9:28:44 AM

Grittyville, WA

Good question kib. I don't know but you can add brown organics and a little nitrogen, or add already balanced compost. I think alfalfa is a good option too.

I don't like adding lawn clippings because I think the bad bugs/ bad invertebrates thrive and the wrong kinds of organisms thrive on lawn clippings. Call me crazy. I'm not a top grower I'm just a second year grower FYI.

2/1/2018 9:38:59 AM

Grittyville, WA

Another maybe bad idea... Plant rye or barley now, then mow it and spray it with roundup as the pumpkin plant grows out. I think as long as ithe cover crop was dead it would not increase the humidity, and you wouldn't have to worry about tilling it and damaging the pumpkin roots. Let the tendrils grab the mowed ends of dead rye/ barley. Plain loose dirt gives the plant nothing to hold onto so staking is necessary--the vine can get rolled over or moved around by a spring storm.

2/1/2018 10:01:29 AM

Grittyville, WA

Obviously be very very careful with the roundup.

2/1/2018 10:02:45 AM

Team Canuckle Heads

Jim you could probably add a little EM1 to the barley mash and make bokashi. Add it to your compost pile and it will break it down in about 10 weeks, but I wouldn't put it in my garden. It gets pretty hot.

2/1/2018 11:50:17 AM

Team Canuckle Heads

Just wondering - if the dead rye is considered a brown is it going to suck up all your N to finish the composting process.

2/1/2018 11:54:10 AM

Anamosa, IA [email protected]

Barley is deep rooted, good at pulling nutrients up from the subsoil and loosening the subsoil.

This spring I plan to plant some mixed brassicas and till them in far enough ahead of the pumpkin that I don't damage roots. In the past I have used nature's nutrient scavengers, weeds, as a cover crop. Keep them mowed and till them in, or if I have the patch tilled first, spray them with glyphosate and leave then on top as mulch.

I'm going to rest some spots this year. Part will be planted to sweetcorn, then mowed, tilled and planted to mustard. I hope the corn stalks will improve OM. Mustard will be tilled in before freeze up. The rest will be planted to mustard first, then followed up later with brassicas, heavy with the daikon radish and maybe some oats or annual rye grass. It will be a test to see which works best for the following year.

2/1/2018 1:18:17 PM

Menomonie, WI ([email protected])

I would just like to point out, a lot of growing advice is given. It is sort of like everything else on the internet. You have to disseminate what is correct. Are the winners of your weigh off growing on bare soil? Why waste your time trying to reinvent the wheel when someone else with 25-30 years of experience is willing to share their knowledge with you.

2/1/2018 1:25:44 PM

50 Acres

Thank you Zeke.

2/1/2018 2:27:57 PM

Hot West Tennessee

There is a whole new movement in growing with cover crops.
Bought the book Managing cover crops profitably. Just the beginning for me. I will let you know how it goes. Think about it . Where in nature is there bare ground. With cover crops. Microbes, bacteria and Fungi are alive and active all the time. Cover crops have many benefits if used correctly.

2/1/2018 8:24:38 PM

Grittyville, WA

I worry that the bugs that eat turnips will also eat pumpkin roots. I hate to feed the enemy there is nothing wrong with trying something new. I think the growers who are successful have spent a long time figuring out what works for them.

2/1/2018 9:31:25 PM