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Ontario, Canada.

I wanted to clarify for all out there in pumpkin land just what I have been proposing.

First of all this is not about plant size nor cell expansion!

It is strictly and entirely all about cell division. This is very important for growers to understand the difference.

Cell division as it relates to the tomato study I have referenced involves the discovery that a fruits cells will only divide for a limited time(10 days). The study found that it is possible to extend this time period by up to 80%. What this means is that the combined potential of more cells may translate into greater expansion potential of the fruit. This was in fact documented as in larger fruit that were delayed in senescence onset.

However my view is that in order to achieve a more robust pumpkin sink a plant still needs a bigger Xylem and Phloem architectures(Peduncle)as well. In fact there is research that I have referenced in the Calcium Hi-way articles that indicates such. Hence This allows for greater importation of assimilates from the leaves.

While there may be numerous ways (Ethylene and stimulation)to achieve this larger architecture, I believe it is extremely important that all meristematic growth must be halted at and just before formation of the fruiting bud can be seen.

Nothing says that it has to be the first fruit you must pollinate. This is where some of the confusion has resulted. If you believe your plants are too small then let them grow larger and get the next little bastard pumpkin on the vine. However Never, Never let any type of competing sinks (Roots, Shoots or Fruits)develop at the same time.

The main reason for refraining in the early use of kelp is that Cytokine's are inhibitory of auxins. So if a grower is trying to develop the largest plant possible before the fruit shows up why would you want to apply a moron product that slows meristematic growth.

5/1/2015 8:37:36 PM

Ontario, Canada.

There are many questions that remain to be answered.

Matts work will go along way in determining a refinement of applying synthetic E compound's. The study seams to suggest a grower could receive a boost in size weight and length of growth. I truly believe its going to be proven. However there may be some additional draw backs along the way.

My tactic in Ontario is to take a different approach. I am teach growers that there are natural ways to accomplish this.

One is to restrict competing sinks.
Two is to stimulate the fruit by vibration in the first 48hrs.
Three is to apply natural ethylene produced by bananas and apples

5/1/2015 8:47:10 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Stimulation is first and foremost a very natural way to release ethylene. The old electric and or sonic toothbrush is new again. My hypothesis is that direct stimulation in the first 48 hrs may provide this.

5/1/2015 8:51:01 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Applying natural E is easily accomplished Using the gas trapped in a plastic bag of apples and bananas and puffing the young fruit with the trapped air mixture several times in the first two days.

5/1/2015 8:53:57 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Now why exactly does this work and calls cells to divide for a longer time period?

I have many thoughts on this for more you will have to stay tuned. Is it Telomere and DNA preservation? Possibly. What ever we need to understand what all of these PGR;s do to the plants.

Maximum Yield has just picked up my story on Cell Division and will publish in July. I will have more on this.

5/1/2015 9:00:35 PM

Central NY

I'm so doing this...What does senescence and meristematic mean?

5/1/2015 9:20:27 PM

Rudolph

Very interesting read, thanks for the post.

5/2/2015 1:19:40 AM

JACKSON, WISCONSIN. ; )

Hmmnn

5/2/2015 2:54:00 AM

50 Acres

What if you cut up bananas, and apples and placed them around the fruit and let them vent up to the fruit. Other than the fruit flies, is there any harm.

5/2/2015 7:43:29 AM

Ontario, Canada.

We Now understand that AGP have larger phloem's, courtesy of Savage Dec 2014. So building a bigger pipe by encouraging cell division, will result in a stronger sink, A larger fruit, and one that grows longer.

However, The drawbacks ahead maybe found in the current status of the AGP. We may have already been blindly fostering larger Architectures. The Savage findings may reveal that AGP are already at their growth limit's.

This being said there is some recent anecdotal evidence from growers that may have indicated a similar response in prior trials. The 1999 study and the others listed below help to expand upon my thoughts....Enjoy....

"Ethylene released from ethrel (2-Chloroethylphosphonic acid) could possibly be utilized for promoting pod growth as Abbas (1991) has shown that early pod development is related to higher ethylene levels, thus decreasing flower and pod shedding and thereby reducing abscission and improving better pod set."

"Ethrel induced increase in cell division, resulting in increase fruit size and yield have been reported in tomato fruits (Atta – Aly et al., 1999)."

"Cucurbits ethrel application at 250 ppm promoted flower formation (Robinson et al. 1970)."

5/2/2015 7:43:44 AM

Deer Park, WI

Porkchop: "Senescence" is the biologist's fancy term for "getting older". Cant poop, hair's falling out, sleep is bad, muscles ache....that's senescence.

As it relates to plants, it describes maturing fruit. Like a banana turning brown..thats senescence.

"Meristematic" is the biologists term for describing growing points. All vine tips are considered "meristematic tissue" because they are active growing points.

5/2/2015 8:02:41 AM

Deer Park, WI

Good stuff, Russ. I like the way you've shared these ideas and i think its great to include suggestions for those who arent making the plunge into applying hormones synthetically.

Curious if you have an opinion regarding the main vine tip...slice and dice at fruiting or let it go thru the season??

5/2/2015 8:04:36 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Well yes there may indeed be harm. Too much of a good thing is bordering on you being a "MORON" 26 west.

The need to be gradually increase. Less is better in my view. The questions that need to answered are.

How much to apply.
When to apply. At flower initiation? There is work that suggests the treatment can begin much earlier.
Also is Morning or nighttime application best.
Duration of application. How long?

5/2/2015 8:16:06 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Joe. Thanks for your comments.

Back in the day we believed that any vine was better than no vine. We both thought that it was necessary to have an advanced growing point to drive xylem flow in the fruits direction.

I am teaching growers to not worry about plant size or for that matter vine after the fruit. I believe it irrelevant. What matters most is pipe size. Increasing the number of cell divisions increases the eppy genetic potential.

IT might be ok to harmonize the discussion and say a few extra vines or a longer main may not hurt. We just do not have the definitive answer.

I could say that after DAP 45 it is pointless to have more vines growing downstream. This is due the simple fact that xylem transport into the fruit is often completely halted at this point. Stress here is a big factor. I believe and it has been proven that each stressor contributes to increasingly restricted xylem flow. Each event is therefore cumulative.

The analogy is much like a humans arteries the plants close off the pipes. This is done to protect the seeds from possible desiccation. The response to stress is to primarily hasten procreation. Rushing the plant into senescence ensures the next generation may have a better chance to procreate into the next generation.

5/2/2015 8:59:03 AM

Ontario, Canada.

As a giant grower you most certainly want to avoid the death sentence of Senescence. Building a bigger pipe comes with a benefit of a larger pipe. Abscission takes longer when the xylem and phloem are larger. This is I believe the cause of the increased growth curve the studies have revealed.

I caution though that although we now know a lot more about the plants internal plumbing the E application does not directly translate into bigger fruit. Heck they may all blow up! On the other hand someone might grow a 3,000 lber this year or we may have already reached capacity as Savage has noted and I could be completely wrong too.

5/2/2015 9:09:32 AM

Deer Park, WI

"I could say that after DAP 45 it is pointless to have more vines growing downstream. This is due the simple fact that xylem transport into the fruit is often completely halted at this point."

This is an intriguing comment, I hadnt given thought to xylem influx into the fruit. I was operating from the premise that fruit loading was exclusively a phloem-driven event.

5/2/2015 11:32:59 AM

Grant, AL

Does this only apply to pumpkins or would this apply to watermelon as well? Do you recommend pruning the vine past the fruit?

5/2/2015 12:04:00 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Joe the xylem slowly looses the ability import into the fruit. Early in a fruits life its main protection is that it can draw from the xylem during increased FS respiration or canopy transpiration. At DAP 45 or so the seeds are considered mature so a functioning xylem is no longer needed. The reason may be found where we are not looking.

The notion that seeds in the young fruit somehow drive the pumpkin engine to mature is in my view mute. Low seed counts are common in some of today's fruit. So to say the seeds govern pgr's and senescence is mute.

Joe I will post the xylem info I have latter this evening.

5/2/2015 1:56:34 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Charles, great question. However It's really not about a before or after thingy. Don't grow competing sinks at any time! Sorry to be so blunt. But this is the take home message.

Sinks compete for resources irregardless of where they are. Look at this way. Think of a ten day old pumpkin that would have 10 generations of cell division. It has xxx number of cells.... Now thing of a 14 day old fruit that has what???? yeah that it a higher number of cells....now those additional cells combine and can be kept expanding four an additional time period.
It is the fountain of youth for an annual like pumpkins or for that mater any other annual type of vine fruit.

5/2/2015 2:09:16 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Joe the xylem slowly looses the ability import into the fruit. Early in a fruits life its main protection is that it can draw from the xylem during increased FS respiration or canopy transpiration. At DAP 45 or so the seeds are considered mature so a functioning xylem is no longer needed. The reason may be found where we are not looking.

The notion that seeds in the young fruit somehow drive the pumpkin engine to mature is in my view mute. Low seed counts are common in some of today's fruit. So to say the seeds govern pgr's and senescence is mute.

Joe I will post the xylem info I have latter this evening.

5/2/2015 2:16:19 PM

Ontario, Canada.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/pce.12411/abstract

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/pce.12411/abstract

Joe try these two

5/2/2015 2:19:09 PM

Midway, UT

Great stuff! What you are saying makes sense in terms of not using kelp prior to pollination so you don't slow down meristematic growth. Would you not use kelp at all prior to pollination or just in the weeks prior to pollination?

5/2/2015 3:20:23 PM

Grant, AL

Ok. I think I understand what your saying. So when you get a good growing fruit set on a vine should you terminate all other vines to keep them from stealing nutrients from the vine that has the fruit on it? Wouldn't this ensure that all energy taken in by the plant would go directly to fruit growth?

5/2/2015 3:21:46 PM

Central NY

Thanks joze.. Interesting stuff

5/2/2015 3:28:43 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

please believe me when i state that i am not trying to sound neg as i find this very interesting. How many years have we been adding seaweed --kelp to the planting site? Weights have been increasing year after year after year?. My 1811 was poll at between 12-14ft and the main continued to grow long after poll to approx 65ft(check 2012 diary).Loads of kelp incorporated into the patch as well as foliage sprays with seaweed from neptunes.You want to see vines move before and after poll ?? Step into the Donkin patch...lol

5/2/2015 3:39:45 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Re: Kelp. It is a fact that to some degree Cytokines are inhibitory to vine growth. In southern Ontario it makes a huge difference to my growers. They want as large a plant as possible. I don't see your reasoning Carl. Of course you've had good luck in the patch. Think of it this way it is a fact that your still more than 500lbs behind Benni.

Although Anecdotal evidence is not something I'm too concerned about. However you could be right that low concentrations of seaweed applied Cytokines are simply not potent enough to affect growth in away you can see.

5/2/2015 4:53:07 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

there is no way that vines can grow any faster Russ!! I'm sure you have seen just how much seaweed i use each season! I realize i am approx 500lbs behind Beni just like the rest of the pumpkin growing world and i am by no means trying to prove you wrong Russ.I've seen pics of benis patch and i do believe he was poll at approx 12-15ft and i also noticed that he was growing using the old fashioned xmas tree pattern(please correct me if i am wrong.If you terminate at 12-15ft!! How big is your plant???

5/2/2015 5:13:49 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

keep in mind that he did grow a 2323lb pumpkin at that distance!

5/2/2015 5:17:38 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Carl distance and plant size are irrelevant. A large plant has never been the key to growing a larger pumpkin. This all about cells. A fruit that has more cells ultimately has more expansion potential irregardless of a plants size.

If you are busey growing salad your never gonna have the necessary cellular division to have a strong enough sink to produce a 2300 lb pumpkin.

5/2/2015 6:37:32 PM

Ontario, Canada.

The point I'm making is that cytokines limit the potential of vines by inhibiting auxins. They repress meristematic and internode growth. This causes the plant to be shorter, Sturdier and stocky.

It ok if you can't understand the depth of the topic. It is after all fairly complex as it does require growers to think out of the box. Bursting the paradigm has been a challenge within my own club. I simply say if you have a better idea please present it with facts. Because as they say the bull shit will stops when the tail gate drops.

5/2/2015 6:49:04 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

I have grade 12 Russ!. I deliver fresh milk by tractor trailer everyday for the last 20yrs to all local grocery stores.I am not very smart!. How big was the plant that grew Beni's 2323lb pumpkin??

5/2/2015 7:04:29 PM

Ontario, Canada.

I'm glad you graduated clean through the 12 th grade I will call you Jethro from now on. A well edumacated feller like you should be able figure out that's plant size has little relationship to fruit strength.

5/2/2015 7:39:35 PM

Torrance, Ca.

In between the other stuff, nice thread and got me thinking.

5/2/2015 7:54:18 PM

Tasmania Australia

Please correct me if i am completely wrong here.
After reading through this post and the two links, are you saying to increase the number of cells you just have to shade or cover the newly pollinated fruit?
Or have i just completely miss read the whole post?

5/2/2015 8:10:58 PM

North Smithfield, RI

For us high school grads , could you guys use a little simpler language to make your points ?

5/2/2015 8:24:41 PM

Grant, AL

So are you saying to terminate all vines other than the one that your fruit is growing on so all energy and nutrients will go directly to the fruit?

5/2/2015 8:46:26 PM

Ontario, Canada.

bluesilver, Nope no mention of shade in any of my posts. The whole premise is that sink strength is directly controlled by the amount of and duration of cell division.

5/2/2015 8:56:52 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Charles, no.... You should not try grow more than one sink at a time. If your still growing any vine (Main or Secondary)at the same time a fruiting bud is developing the auxins that are needed to drive the growth of the bud itself will be limited.

This is really about sink source relationship and what it takes to have a fruit that has a greater capacity to expand for a longer period of time.

The concept is very difficult to grasp because we are often stuck in paradigms. These lock us into thinking that a plants size has a relationship to its final fruit size. This view is simply not true. According to the latest research (Savage 2014)the relative size of the sinks xylem & phloem architecture is much more important.

5/2/2015 9:15:01 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

i think i asked a question as to the size of plant beni grew the 2323 on? Can we grow a 2400lb pumpkin on 250 sq ft Russ ??

5/2/2015 9:20:41 PM

Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia

Good post Russ, I have read your posts on GVGO regarding sink source relationships and the Holy Grail seems to be finding a way to "trick" or fool the plant that it isn't aging. A long road for your hypothesis going back 10 years

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/MsgBoard/ViewThread.asp?b=3&p=129941

where the use of kelp was thought to be a " life prolonger".

5/2/2015 9:21:59 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Here is an analogy.

Suppose you have a 3/4" pipe and a 1" pipe and a 24,000 gallon pool to fill up. No matter how much the water (size of the plant) is supplied a 3/4" pipe can't' fill the pool any faster than the 1" pipe can.

5/2/2015 9:25:10 PM

Tasmania Australia

Ok, so nothing about shade, just trying to find the part that i am miss reading.
I am reading about the sink strength, So here is what i think you are saying, again please correct me if i am still off track.
Basically, as soon as the bud shows up, terminate all vine tips? Am i on the right track or still way off on what you are saying?

5/2/2015 9:28:09 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

OK!! I am asking the whole entire pumpkin growing world a very simple question including Beni!!! or anyone else who knows?What was the size of the plant that grew the 2323??? When was it pollinated Russ? Miss the poll date by 1 week and you loose at the least 200lbs!!! Can cell expansion make up this kind of weight loss? Is pollination date still important???

5/2/2015 9:31:49 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Yes Andy thank you. It has been a long road. I believe if Steve Jepson was still around he would say we've finally found the key as to why some pumpkins become larger (are stronger sinks) is increased cell division and delayed senescence.

Still though the Richmond Lange effect is still in play. It is still important to apply cytokines after the fruit bud develops.

5/2/2015 9:33:12 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

come on Russ!Please and i mean please explain!!!

5/2/2015 9:39:48 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Carl respectfully your missing the point. It not about plant size or cell expansion. The 8.41 and Savage 2014 have proven this.

Its about cell division....it is entirely different than cell expansion....

If you have ample cells than you will have a stronger sink then and only than will you get a larger fruit.

5/2/2015 9:41:34 PM

Grant, AL

Ok. Let me give this another shot. Are you saying that you want to closely monitor vine growth early on in veg phase and select most vigorous vine and grow that one only so as fruiting bud develops all auxins will go to that bud and eliminating all other vine growth will in turn increase the diameter of the vine that the fruit will develop and grow on. Wouldn't this allow the vine to take in more nutrients causing a fast growing fruit?

5/2/2015 9:43:04 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

feel free Andy???

5/2/2015 9:44:25 PM

Ontario, Canada.

OK here is another way to think about it!

You have two balloons. One has a surface area of 2"sq. the other 3sq.inches If you blow them up which one is larger. Of course its the 3" balloon. Why?

Because there is more material in the 3" it allows it to expand larger. Therefore a fruit that has more cells(Materials)has the potential to increase in size much larger than the fruit that has less materials in or smaller pipes.

5/2/2015 9:47:32 PM

Tasmania Australia

OK, i am lost here, the sink that you talk about, is that the initial plant size before the buds first appear?
Then you talk about cell division, in the bud before pollination?

5/2/2015 9:48:20 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Charles. Yes now your getting it.

5/2/2015 9:48:35 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

i think you know what i meant Russ.Will you please answer my questions??

5/2/2015 9:50:08 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Bluesilver a sink is any actively growing part of a plant. They can be roots, shoots or fruits.

5/2/2015 9:51:35 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

yes we all know what a sink is!!!

5/2/2015 9:54:03 PM

Ontario, Canada.

OK Carl, the 1999 study proved that yes cell division which results in increased cell expansion can make up for a later pollination date.

5/2/2015 9:54:19 PM

Ontario, Canada.

I'm not sure Bluesilver does though.

5/2/2015 9:56:53 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

1999??? This is 2015!! Can you please answer my very simple questions above??.

5/2/2015 9:58:12 PM

Tasmania Australia

Sorry for asking donkin,
So all up basically you are saying, to get a fruit that is going to develop the most cells just select the most vigorous growing vine, weather it is the main or a secondary and dead end all others?
Does that sound close?

5/2/2015 9:59:07 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

nope!!!much more to the hobby than that!!!

5/2/2015 10:00:57 PM

Grant, AL

The more actively growing vines or fruits that you have at one time the less auxins you will have going to each actively growing part. It sounds like you want ALL auxins directed to one vine and eventually one fruit. Big Kahuna, would the vine diameter be dependant on how early you can get down to one growing vine in vegetative phase of growth? Please correct me if I am wrong I am going to test this on a giant watermelon this summer!

5/2/2015 10:01:38 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

Come on Russ ...i love to read your posts and always will!!! But Teach Me and at the least answer my questions???

5/2/2015 10:04:08 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Carl, I'm not telling you to grow a 2400 pumpkin on 250sq.ft. plant. I am suggesting that you wait until you feel you have enough plant then what else you decide is up to you. My point is don't grow competing sinks in hopes that a larger plant will some how grow a bigger pumpkin.

It doesn't work like that. Plant size is ultimately irrelevant, if you have a fruit that has developed as a weaker sink because it has smaller pipes.

5/2/2015 10:06:05 PM

Tasmania Australia

Ah, i know exactly what you are saying now.
It is the same for growing apple tress.
You can have a large main truck, but if the side arms are larger or similar size nothing happens for the fruit growth.

5/2/2015 10:09:44 PM

Tasmania Australia

Ah, i know exactly what you are saying now.
It is the same for growing apple tress.
You can have a large main truck, but if the side arms are larger or similar size nothing happens for the fruit growth.

5/2/2015 10:09:47 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

will you please answer my questions????????????

5/2/2015 10:11:40 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Charles more or less you are a good student. There has been work done that correlates vine diameter to sink strength.

Carl > So wait until the second of third fruit. By that time the plant will be bigger anyways. Just make sure to terminate at the moment you she the fruit bud. This will help to ensure maximum cell division of the peduncle and there after the fruit itself post pollination.

5/2/2015 10:13:39 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

In your mind how big a plant to grow a 2400lb pumpkin??

5/2/2015 10:16:28 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

sounds great for punny little field pumpkins....

5/2/2015 10:18:57 PM

Grant, AL

Thanks for the great advice Russ! This is very interesting and I will let you know how everything goes with my melon test. I have just transplanted outside so I can try this this summer.

5/2/2015 10:20:14 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

is anybody learning something tonight on this great site?????

5/2/2015 10:20:26 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Carl, to me there is a wide range of possible plant sizes lest say 400 and up. It truly depends on ones climate and host of other things including the size of the fruits internal plumbing.

I believe it may someday be possible to grow a very large fruit on a very small plant. Hence this is why I say plant size is irrelevant to fruit size. A fruit with better plumbing will or at least should perform better of course with a bigger canopy.

5/2/2015 10:24:18 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Carl, don't be so anal. You should be considering instead. How strong can I get the sink to be.

5/2/2015 10:28:24 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

lol...one question?? What was the sqft of the plant that grew Benis 2323lb pumpkin??

5/2/2015 10:30:18 PM

Ontario, Canada.

It does not matter. What matters most is the fruits plumbing. You could grow a 750 sq.ft plant with a pumpkin that will under perform a pumpkin on a 400 sq.ft. plant.

Why?

Because simply the fruits plumbing is not set up to take in extra Xylem or Phloem flow.

5/2/2015 10:32:41 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Carl, What does the size of a plant have to do with cell division? You are still thinking backwards. Plant size has no relationship to fruit sink strength.

5/2/2015 10:37:07 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

i'm a milk man Russ...how big was his plant? It grew a 2323lb pumpkin....

5/2/2015 10:38:12 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

i think for some strange reason you do not want to answer my questions...

5/2/2015 10:46:23 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

how can you say that plant size has no relationship to fruit strength??? Do you think plant size didn't get these WRs where we are today??

5/2/2015 10:50:43 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

answer my questions Russ???

5/2/2015 10:53:10 PM

Eganville, Ontario

Carl -- "I let the vine grow another 13.8 feet after pollination. There were 8 side vines on the left and right of the main before the pumpkin, and 8 left and 8 right side vines after the pumpkin, all being watered with drip irrigation. I think the vines feed back into the pumpkin later in the season." Beni Meier December 2013 SNGPG newsletter.

5/2/2015 11:12:59 PM

Muddy Waters

Beni grew some monsters very impressive to say the least.But who is to say that it is the same plant size & fruit position that will be the first to break the 2500 lb mark?Great is Great! But there always a bigger one coming down the path.Good Luck to AWL!!!

5/2/2015 11:40:30 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

thank you Ryan!!

5/3/2015 7:09:41 AM

Halifax, PA

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=232740

5/3/2015 7:15:26 AM

Ireland

Google scholar is going to push this hobby to where it has never been before
Micheál

5/3/2015 8:10:30 AM

Ontario, Canada.

how can I say this > plant size has no relationship to fruit strength. Simply its now a matter of science record. Savage in Dec of 2014 has proven it. "There was no evidence that changes in leaf area or photosynthetic capacity impacted fruit size."...."Instead, giant varieties differed in their ovary morphology and contained more phloem on a cross-sectional area basis in their petioles and pedicels than the ancestral variety. These results suggest that sink activity is important in determining fruit size and that giant pumpkins have an enhanced capacity to transport carbon."

Plant Cell Environ. 2014 Dec 25. doi: 10.1111/pce.12502. [Epub ahead of print]

The making of giant pumpkins: how selective breeding changed the phloem of Cucurbita maxima from source to sink.

Savage JA1, Haines DF, Holbrook NM

5/3/2015 8:30:59 AM

Ontario, Canada.

So what is the take home message Carl?

5/3/2015 8:31:50 AM

Ontario, Canada.

For me its the finding that the combination of a bigger pipes, larger xylems and phloem's(in the peduncle) and fruit that undergo lengthier cell division phase will end up with more cells and this leads to bigger fruit. Therefore plant size is or at the very the way we all thought about is irrelevant.

The world was flat until 1400!

5/3/2015 8:37:47 AM

nOVA sCOTIA

lol Russ! Is the first sink the strongest? If Beni terminated his plant after poll could a plant that size grow a 2400lb pumpkin? What size plant do you believe is large enough to grow the next WR.Just trying to incorporate this info into the patch ....

5/3/2015 9:30:02 AM

Deer Park, WI

The Earth was the center of the universe until recently too. And the heretics who suggested otherwise burned at the stake. Careful, Russ, lest you become barbequed for your hearsay.

Joking aside, this topic is a big deal. I've read, with cautious optimism, the discussions on these topics and have come to embrace their conclusions.

As Russ mentioned, he, I and others were discussing sink/source relationships many, many moons ago. Our instincts are being proven correct with legit science. I state this not to toot our own horns but to call attention to the fact that paradigm change takes a long time and perseverance will get us there.

Lastly, I recognize that the jargon used in discussing scientific topics can get messy. Information that seems important flys over the top of heads and you wonder what you're missing. Please dont hesitate to speak up and ask questions. I/we will do our best to explain the concepts in ways everyone can relate to.

Engaging discussions like these are beneficial to the hobby as a whole...crowd-sourcing so many diverse insights and opinions can lead to meaningful positive change!

5/3/2015 10:05:07 AM

N.c.

This is a very interesting thread. I would say though that if you are growing a pumpkin in 2015 a minimum plant size, as Donkin is stressing, is very important. Evidence has shown you do not need a 1000 square foot plant to grow a world record. There is no evidence that you can grow a world record pumpkin on a 150 square foot plant. One day who knows but for now, no matter how big your peduncle is, plant size matters.

5/3/2015 11:01:59 AM

Netherlands

I have published on this topic before after studying research done at Dutch and international agricultural universities, most of which was done with tomatoes and cucumbers.
There is more competition between plant and fruit (and fruit and second fruit) with members of the cucumber family (pumpkins, melons, marrows, etc) than with the tomato family, although it also plays an important role there.
I grow a variety of giant vegetables from the cucurbit family and hold the world record for marrow and Dutch records for cucumber and tomato. In the case of the marrow, all growth was terminated BEFORE pollinating the fruit. Giant cucumbers are also grown on very small plants with no growth after the fruit and no side vines, much like Dan's tomato plant.
The tendancy with marrows is to downsize the plants as almost all big ones are now splitting because the plants are probably too big (15 x 15 ft).
In any case, there is a minimum plant size which is needed to support cell expansion. Research on cucumbers showed that during the initial cell division stage, up to 5 times as many cells were produced when the conditions were right (that is lighting, temperature, plant growth, etc). In this stage the MAXIMUM weight is determined. If the number of cells are limited in this stage, no plant size or growing techniques will be able to compensate.
This is what Russ means when he states that there is no relationship between plant size and fruit weight.

5/3/2015 11:26:47 AM

Netherlands

@ Carl

The first fruit that appears on a plant is not dominant. The first fruit pollinated is. This seems to hold true for the first 12 days. Growing multiple fruit (ex. a backup) during the appearance of the bud and 12 days after pollination is certainly not recommended.

5/3/2015 11:31:08 AM

Netherlands

Just to point out, many growers, probably including Beni, have simply been doing things right, with or without knowing, for years. I think we are just giving it a name and explaining why and sharing the information at this stage.
It is possible that growing the plant on after pollination might detract from the final weight, but it may also be preventing the fruit from splitting. Experiments I did with marrows proved this to be plausible.

5/3/2015 11:34:53 AM

Goodwood, Ontario, Canada

So if you cut off all growth tips at the time of pollination you might be shooting yourself in the foot because you may not have a big enough plant to maximize the cell growth.

5/3/2015 11:35:41 AM

50 Acres

Dutch Brad, Thank you for explaining without all the intimidating big words.

5/3/2015 11:43:49 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Thanks Brad and Joe,

Peter that is not the point Brad is making. Plant size is irrelevant if a fruit has developed under competitive stressors.

The 8.41 of Dans and all of these referenced studies have proven this.

First plant sinks are generally thought to be stronger simply because they have developed with less competition.

I am certainly not promoting nor did I ever say you could grow a 2400 pound fruit on a 150 sq. ft. Plant.

5/3/2015 11:51:11 AM

N.c.

Thank you Brad for the info and clarification. So it seems Donkin was correct in implying that a giant fruit is not the product of a single silver bullet.

5/3/2015 12:10:00 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

OK Russ. Can a 2400lb pumpkin be grown on a 300sqft plant? I sure hope you guy's are correct as there is nothing more i hate than to work 10 hours,pull in the driveway and crawl on my hands and knees for 3 hours burying vines.That's it i'm cutting my plant size in half..... I can understand that plant size is irrelevant with a tomato or a puny fp but ol dumb dumb here is having a hard time with the AG's.

5/3/2015 2:05:38 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

Brad. Excluding you!!. The other 2 would not make very good teachers...lol

5/3/2015 2:07:07 PM

Deer Park, WI

Insightful contributions, Brad. That was very helpful.

5/3/2015 2:19:20 PM

Deer Park, WI

Here's what this boils down to in my patch- as a "northern" grower, I struggle to get plants to fill out 250sq ft of area before the very late June/early July pollination window. As such, I worry that terminating vine tips and other "sinks" that early in the season will not provide a large enough root and leaf system to support a rapidly growing fruit (the old paradigm). Can we have the best of both worlds?

For us Northerners, perhaps it means we delay pollination a bit to allow for a more complete plant to establish, remove the growing points, then pollinate fruit.

This means the old rule of thumb of setting the primary fruit at 8-12' on the main could get pushed a little further out.

The burning, unanswered question on everyone's mind is how big of a plant is needed? While I agree with Russ's recurring statement that reducing the number of sinks is paramount to fruit size, we still need to manage an adequate collection of leaves and roots.

I don't know exactly what sq footage I'll shoot for this year. What i'll do is try to get that plant as big as possible by early July and then get out my pruning shears, ala edward scissorhands.

5/3/2015 2:34:49 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

You're up Russ!

5/3/2015 2:54:04 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

Joze. What is your PB?

5/3/2015 2:59:24 PM

Deer Park, WI

1422lbs, 2010

5/3/2015 3:08:34 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

:)

5/3/2015 3:25:11 PM

Colorado

Russ do you think thinning secondaries and keeping them relatively short will help develop a larger xylem/phloem "pipe" of a main vine.

5/3/2015 4:45:02 PM

Colorado

Russ do you think thinning secondaries and keeping them relatively short will help develop a larger xylem/phloem "pipe" of a main vine.

5/3/2015 4:55:23 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Joe, Well yes would be the answer. Although I think if a secondary is growing at the same time its still antagonistic to the FS at any time of its development.

My advice to those like Carl and others concerned about plant size is to go with the second or third pollination on the main.

5/3/2015 5:32:57 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

most growers don't live in California Russ. Each time you miss you are looking at maybe 10 days for the next one.10 days is a lot of weight(maybe 200lbs) at the least.

5/3/2015 6:10:51 PM

Grant, AL

I am going to grow one of our watermelons this summer by terminating the secondaries as they begin to grow to allow the main vine diameter to hopefully increase. I might try to set a melon further out on the main to give the vine diameter a little more time to increase. Maybe at 15-20 feet.

5/3/2015 6:13:17 PM

North Smithfield, RI

Yes Joze this topic flies over my head ! The only things I know is hard work , good care , good soil and good luck .
will techies be the only ones growing in the future ?

5/3/2015 7:59:59 PM

Cameron

Great thread Russ. It was hard to wrap my head around it at the GVGO seminar at 1st, but after a lot of discussion & research we will be trying it on one of our plants this season. Hopefully the later pollination doesn't become an issue later in the season.
Jane & Phil

5/4/2015 9:10:34 AM

Farming- a bunch of catastrophies that result in a lifestyle

So, basically:
The bigger the main vine in diameter, the more nutrients can be supplied.
Question: how can we increase main vine diameter before setting time?
Once you set the baby, stop other sinks (places where nutrients get used up) from developing by stopping need- ie: if it's not growing vines, the nutrients it would have used for vines goes into the baby instead.
Question: With all other sinks stopped up, how does one keep the baby from going 'boom' during periods of heavy rain?
Question: If we left, say, 2-4' of main after the kin before terminating, could this then be a way of 'letting out excess water' during times of heavy rain by slicing off an inch or two of the 'extra' main so it 'bleeds' out the excess? I ask this, as, last year, when I had foaming stump, cutting off tips helped immensely to relieve some of the 'back pressure' created by mother nature and her damn bucket loads of rain.
Incidently, I can now understand how I got 817 pounds on 92 square feet:
very thick main
sides were terminated before set due to patch size
mistakes made positioning main for kin growth led to terminating everything but the baby. Interesting. It wasn't planned on my part. LOL

5/4/2015 10:41:27 AM

Midway, UT

Two years ago I had a pumpkin at the time of the patch tour that I believe had the 2nd biggest measurements at that point in the season for any pumpkin ever grown in Colorado. I bring it up because it was a really unique plant/pumpkin. As near as I can recall I pollinated at about 14 feet and it had descent sized side vines for that point of the season but it wasn't a very aggressive grower and was probably 250-300 square feet in total size. The pumpkin on that plant literally was sucking everything out of the plant. There was very little vine growth after the fruit and the leaves were small until late in the season. Tissue tests showed slightly high nitrogen at pollination time, but even still it had little vine growth after the fruit. However, one thing I noticed is that the first couple of terminated side vines seemed to not be effected by the fruit sink as much. The leaves and vines on those first vines got larger and thicker as the season went on while the leaves and vines after the fruit pretty much stayed small to the end of the season. It seemed to me that not all of the parts of the plant are feeding the pumpkin or being effected by the fruit sink in the same way. This is just observational, but from what I saw, it might be that you can keep some parts of the plant growing to keep away early senescence by having growing vine tips, but at the same time keeping the pumpkin as the main sink of the plant by having the better part of the plant terminated. Not sure if that is true, but it is what I saw two years ago with that plant.

5/4/2015 3:50:06 PM

Rudolph

So you know how the first couple secondaires are the most aggressive is this do to the fact they get more cell division because they they are only competing with the main vine, would it be benifical to cut the first set or 2 of secondaires off to promote cell division in your main sink? just a thought

5/4/2015 4:45:22 PM

Muddy Waters

Im getting a headache,back to the patch!

5/4/2015 9:35:08 PM

JACKSON, WISCONSIN. ; )

Hmmm.. Even more interesting now

5/4/2015 10:46:26 PM

Upa Creek, Mo

Wish we could bump this post to keep it going.

5/4/2015 10:50:20 PM

Netherlands

Growing in a tulip (half a spider) shape might help you get a large enough plant by pollination time. You keep the first sets of secondaries going and wrap them around the edges of your patch so they are parallel to your main vine. The first set will of course be the longest, and they will gradually decrease in size. By the time you need to pollinate, there won't even be room for any new secondaries and you can terminate them straight away.
At pollination time (or before it, once you see the bud forming), you stop all secondary growth.

I'm just wondering if the growth AFTER the pumpkin is not self supporting, meaning it doesn't add or detract from the main sink (the pumpkin) but keeps itself growing. I don't know.

5/5/2015 3:08:30 AM

Netherlands

As far as pollinating later, you will need to start earlier. This is where greenhouses and polytunnels have a slight advantage. But heated hoophouses are even better as they are easier (also cheaper) to keep warm than the big ones.

5/5/2015 3:11:37 AM

Deer Park, WI

Brad- I love your suggestion for the half a spider plant shape. that's great.

LB- Im not sure if there's anything we can do to increase main vine diameter other than planting seeds from parents where large vine girth was observed. Vine and stem diameter seems to be a genetic factor.

Heavy rain boom booms are always going to be a challenge regardless of pruning habits. consistent watering is always the best preventive medicine. Bleeding the main, as you suggest, may be an effective strategy. But may come at a cost to fruit weight.

Josiah- you are entirely correct in your line of thinking. and combined with Brad's suggestion for plant management, might give you the best of both worlds...take advantage of their high rate of growth and then whack em before pollination.

5/5/2015 7:16:09 AM

Central Illinois

Would it help if you could control vine growth without cutting them so you could allow them to grow at a later time, deprive the growing tip of sunlight by sitting a box over them and or placing gallon jugs of ice near the tip.

You would have to allow some light to the tip of course either cut it back to dark shade or completely cover except for a few hours per day.

Sounds like this is what you would want to do right before bud set

5/5/2015 7:59:53 AM

N.c.

It is no secret that you can increase cell division in a pumpkin. It is no secret that there are a number of ways to to this. It is also no secret that too much of a good thing is not good. I experimented with attempting to increase cell division on two pumpkins a few years ago. Both were around 90 inches in circumference at 21 days after pollination. Both went down around day 45 at about the 500 pound range. I was lax in terminating both secondary and tertiary vines. The plants were around the 500 square foot size? One pumpkin fell to a massive BES, the other to probably 50 smaller splits parallel to the ribs.

5/5/2015 8:18:36 AM

nOVA sCOTIA

terminate at poll time? And if it doesn't take??

5/5/2015 10:40:24 AM

Deer Park, WI

Additional evidence for the cause of increasing fruit cell number/sink strength. This was performed in tomatoes, in theory this applies to pumpkins too...

Scientific explanation:
"...Changes in photoassimilate partitioning between source and sink organs significantly affect fruit development and size. In this study, a comparison was made of tomato plants (Solanum lycopersicum L.) grown under a low fruit load (one fruit per truss, L1 plants) and under a standard fruit load (five fruits per truss, L5 plants), at morphological, biochemical, and molecular levels. Fruit load reduction resulted in increased photoassimilate availability in the plant and in increased growth rates in all plant organs analysed (root, stem, leaf, flower, and fruit). Larger flower and fruit size in L1 plants were correlated with higher cell number in the pre-anthesis ovary. This was probably due to the acceleration of the flower growth rate since other flower developmental parameters (schedule and time-course) remained otherwise unaffected..." Baldet, 2006

Translation: Pruning to one fruit led to much bigger fruit. we already know that. We can extend this to vine tips...removing the other growing tips that draw "photoassimilate" (fancy word for the juice that makes pumpkins big) means more juice for the growing fruit. win win.

This case for this idea is building with each post.

5/5/2015 11:03:20 AM

Deer Park, WI

Carl- I personally will not terminate my main vine tip...at all. I am still a devout believer in allowing the main vine tip to grow throughout the season. The main tip is a primary source of auxin in the plant, the plant hormone that tells the rest of the plant that its still young and growing. The main vine tip produces auxin and shuttles it backwards thru the plant. Further, keeping the main vine growing means that if you abort your primary pollination, the opportunity for more remains.

5/5/2015 11:06:36 AM

Deer Park, WI

Many of you are likely wondering how the heck you can get plants large enough to feel comfortable whacking vine tips prior to pollination. Delaying pollination is one option, however you give up precious growing days by doing so. Starting earlier is an option, and that requires more effort on the front end to get the plant establish in potentially cold/wet conditions.

Lastly, I believe we can use nitrogen to our advantage to speed up vegetative growth. Hence my nitrogen post a few clicks down. Pushing N early season encourages vegetative growth, as many of you likely know. And if the theories on pruning above are indeed true, I believe that optimal nitrogen management becomes an essential tool to achieving the goal of vine tip termination at pollination.

5/5/2015 11:14:57 AM

Midway, UT

I wonder if Ron Wallace unintentionally (or maybe intentionally) when he grew the 2009. When you watch his video and you see how big both the 1725 plant and the 1789 plant where in mid-June. You know a good number of his vines were terminated prior to and just after pollination. Particularly on the 1789 plant, he was starting to run out of space pretty early in the season for that plant based on what you see in the pictures. His strategy that season was to start his plants much earlier and fortunately for him the weather that season was kind to him in the spring.

5/5/2015 11:49:15 AM

nOVA sCOTIA

organic or inorganic forms of N Joze? Will the inorganic form reduce inoculation ?

5/5/2015 12:55:24 PM

San Diego

I am VERY inexperienced in this hobby and subject and I am not even sure I understand what you are talking about, but I am having trouble understanding something. Does the number of cells in the baby pumpkin affect the amount of nutrients it pulls from the plant compared to a pumpkin that was pollinated normally? If it does nothing but increase the size that the pumpkin is capable of reaching, than it seems it would not have an affect on anything because no one has ever reached the AG's growth limits. Trying to get the plant to support the pumpkin would be as if I used the same volume of of air for both the 2" balloon and the 3" balloon which would cause them both to be the same size.

This is just a thought I decided to bring up...I have no idea if it makes sense.

5/5/2015 1:23:55 PM

Deer Park, WI

I will use both organic and inorganic forms of N. In the organic form, I'm a fan of "Sustane", composted turkey litter, relatively high in N content. Incorporated as a granular into the soil as well as trench mix. I'll also use urea pellets. Urea is 46-0-0, the highest potency N you can get in a solid form. Lastly, foliar applications of a N-based liquid can be used.

Bear in mind that plant size is not exclusively measured by linear feet of vine. large, healthy, deep green leaves are the ultimate goal. Nitrogen is the nutrient that facilitates this most directly.

Regarding "inoculation", I will assume you are referring to mycorhizzal inoculation, in which the only nutrient Im aware of that affects this process is phosphorous. Therefore, high N fertility should not impact myco inoculation. Inorganic nitrogen, namely in the ammonia form, can cause localized inhibition of microbial life due to its acidity. However, I feel that the amounts of inorganic N used in patches and the method of the application would not cause serious localized inhibition of microbial activity. I can be called a liar tho if growers choose to use high amounts of ammonia injection. :)

5/5/2015 2:32:42 PM

Deer Park, WI

somebody from San Diego- yes, the number of cells will affect the amount of nutrient pulled from the plant. Each cell inside a baby fruit is its own living factory and warehouse inside a proverbial city of factories and warehouses.

More factories and warehouses require more raw materials to fulfill production. That's the whole essence of this thread. Russ is telling us to remove other cities from the map, in which case bigger and better roads will be built to the one central city. Matt is telling us to build more factories and warehouses in that city by blanketing the city with ethylene early in the city's developmental phase.

More factories + bigger roads = bigger city.

Im advocating for larger, more efficient supplier of the raw materials to the city, which takes the form of nitrogen to push plant/leaf/root growth early season.

Carl, have I met your expectations to be qualified as a teacher yet?

5/5/2015 2:34:28 PM

San Diego

Thanks for the answer. It makes sense :P

5/5/2015 2:57:24 PM

Roy, Washington

Does the number of cells in a fruit and/or "pipe size" have an effect on the number of days to maturity for that fruit?

Or is the number of days to maturity unrelated to this and determined by genetics, weather, nutrients or other things?

5/5/2015 3:12:54 PM

Westmoreland, KS

Okay i have been reading through this and i'm more of a visual person are you saying terminate when the pumpkin is first showing like this http://www.advocarehomecare.com/newsite/garden/tip.html

or when it is about to bloom like this

http://www.advocarehomecare.com/newsite/garden/bloom.html

5/5/2015 4:15:11 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=194278

5/5/2015 5:48:45 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

things are starting to get complicated....

5/5/2015 5:51:49 PM

nOVA sCOTIA

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=213524

5/5/2015 6:01:05 PM

Ontario, Canada.

Dzrt1st,

The study was able to determine that maturity was also delayed and yes pipe size is related to the length of the growth period.

5/5/2015 6:03:26 PM

N.c.

Donkin I was not even going to grow a pumpkin this year as I am now a bushel gourd guy. I think I will start one tonight and here is what I am going to do (probably). As soon as I can after I see the first female I will terminate the main. That will generate a lot of cytokines. The cells in the pumpkin are rapidly dividing at this time anyway. I will save the first two secondaries for now and terminate half the remaining secondaries. If it takes fine if not I will pull the plant. I did not order any 'Anthesis' from Matt so for sure I will vibrate my little peduncle twice a day and puff it with banana peels. If I start a seed tonight I expect a pollination around July 4, that will not work for me so I may prune the first female and go with the second. At pollination I will make a determination of what to do with remaining vines. Probably terminate all but the first two secondaries. I will probably also make up a little batch or two of cytokines enhanced foliar solution.

5/5/2015 6:14:55 PM

N.c.

Too much nitrogen at pollination time is a disaster. Go with the kelp and Neptune Fish Donkin. Plenty of cytokines there. I will be using Neptune.

5/5/2015 7:29:50 PM

Deer Park, WI

Not complicated at all. If you pound a case of beer, you'll get drunk and chances are you wont get to pollinate your female. If you pound 3 or 4 beers fast and start early, you get the benefit of a nice buzz AND get to pollinate your female.

The trick is to make sure that most of the alcohol is outa your system when you want to get frisky with the female.

THe cool thing about alcohol, and nitrogen, is that both are easily washed from the system with good ole fashioned water. No hangover. Successful pollinations.

5/5/2015 8:05:17 PM

N.c.

So Joze if a grower knows he will be deliberately growing a smaller plant, would a plant that is elongated or stocky be better?

5/5/2015 8:39:27 PM

Deer Park, WI

I'd prefer stocky, as shorter internodes may mean more leaf nodes, which means more leaves. But if you are pushing N early season, elongation might be a side effect.

5/6/2015 6:20:39 PM

Valencia Spain

I DoNT understand this do i need to just grow a main vine or what

6/1/2015 3:48:13 PM