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Little-TON - Colorado

I have two so far that are doubling up.... both are a bit different... but are freakin out.... Do you think we are causing this with the PUSHING we are doing? AZo, Mych, Essentials....Seaweed...Fish? Or are we just filtering out the top performerZ? ...

Also thoughts on growing a fruit from a recovered doubled plant....creating a new main from a side vine.,.. Waste of time?

5/15/2013 10:56:28 AM

Little-TON - Colorado

I have a Freddie, and a Francis on the same plant...lol

5/15/2013 10:57:12 AM

Colorado

Last year my biggest was on a classic double vine-termed the main before it went total flat vine.It's not all bad-i think its a genetic trait-related to aggression-I had 4 out of 15 seedlings so far go double this spring.

5/15/2013 11:25:04 AM

Springfield, VT

A double vine is not a big issue it will either split into two mains or become a single later on. It is a tendency of an aggressive vine it is something that should be selected out but isn't since it can be managed

5/15/2013 11:52:57 AM

Central Minnesota

I think we are causing much of this. I over did it two years ago and just about everything in my patch double vined-I was able to water many of them out. No doubt you can't control some but I believe a lot of this is grower caused.

5/15/2013 1:04:05 PM

Menomonie, WI ([email protected])

Nope its natural defect...It is most like related to crossing, I have seen field pumpkins, and winter squash do the same

5/15/2013 1:25:26 PM

Colorado

Ive also seen it in field pumpkins and once in long gourds.

5/15/2013 3:01:08 PM

Pocatello ([email protected])

I don't know how it could be anything other than genetic. If we could make a plant do something like that, I would bet we could make tap-dancing plants, plants that fetch the paper, etc., ;-)

I have tried to grow fruit on double-vining plants, many times, and each time the result has been disappointing. Sad to say, but it's the truth.

5/15/2013 3:09:45 PM

Eugene,OR

Genetic all the way.

5/15/2013 4:55:26 PM

Boscawen, NH

I believe that double vine and flat vine all fall under the category of plant fasciation. If you look this up you will see that all of the above answers could be correct. I would guess that genetics plays a part as well as the stress that we are putting on the plants by starting them earlier, less daylight hours and colder temps. I always have a higher percentage of plants that do it to some degree but also start my plants earlier than most. Used a 600 watt grow light this year and kept the plants under it for longer hours and have had far less problems.

5/15/2013 8:02:26 PM

Colorado

The fact that some plants can pull out of it and have a normal layout suggests growing conditions /environment and timing factor into the phenomenon.

5/15/2013 8:37:53 PM

Midway, UT

I think it is genetic trait that show up more prominently when there is too much fertilizer, in particular nitrogen.

5/15/2013 10:09:13 PM

Central Minnesota

Amen Cojoe. I don't think I had 8 of 10 genetically bad seeds the year I had the problem. It was a combination of the conditions and grower error.

5/15/2013 10:50:55 PM

Little-TON - Colorado

Well... I cut the double off ....so now I only have a 980 Fred as I cut my ricks off... and kept the double side that did not show doubling.... time will tell...

5/16/2013 1:06:31 PM

NILES , CALIF

I planted 3 seeds of the same this year; 2 of them I placed in the patch; one I placed in a 5 gallon bucket; the 2 in the patch I gave them the organic fertilizers from all
over the world, the 2 of them ribbon vined?
the one I stuck in the 5 gallon bucket I just watered it
to keep alive no organics; the one in the bucket did not
ribbon vine????? It is what it is!!

5/17/2013 10:57:42 AM

Little-TON - Colorado

The single tip took off nicely....now itZ getting all the juice... will see if it juZt actZ normal now....

5/17/2013 11:35:39 AM

Little-TON - Colorado

I hear that the Debacco "SnowBall" has been doubling aZ well.....so that would be geneticZ then.....

5/17/2013 11:57:46 AM

NE Kansas

We are also in an advanced stage of line/in-breeding with AG's. The gene pool, even though there are many growers out there, is actually quite small. Undesirable mutations (recessive and otherwise) are going to become much more likely to show up. One should take care to not just simply choose seeds from only the biggest pumpkins every year. If you are inbreeding, then you should be much more aggressive when culling undesirable characteristics.

There are possibly many growers out there in-breeding, and are simply unaware of it.

One should not be tempted to just get the top ten seeds of the years simply so you can be the grower with the heaviest seed lineup. A careful line-breeding program for most growers would serve them best. If you are haphazard, you might end up with ten seeds from ten different growers, and all of them have the same parent or grandparent plant. That would spell trouble for most people if they then cross to their own seeds for more than two subsequent generations.

Intentional in-breeding should be left to those who have considerable skill in genetics. There are, I believe, a number of these people on this site that do that and do it well. I prefer to leave it to them.

I do however plan on line-breeding to the 1634 Werner line. But if I grow my own seed every year after this and do not crossbreed into to a new line every 1-2 years, I will wind up with severe problems.

It might be 'grow big or go home', but if you are never able to leave home then it does not matter.

5/17/2013 2:09:57 PM

Upa Creek, MO

Nelson, I get where you are going, BUT these are not Cheetahs we are breeding nor or we at the bottleneck stage like you say. That's why they keep getting bigger... well, not mine, I'm at home like you. lol

5/17/2013 9:36:27 PM

Menomonie, WI ([email protected])

These a Cucurbita...the genus was designed to breed itself over and over again...

5/17/2013 11:22:21 PM

NE Kansas

We are not at a bottleneck yet, but it can be avoided by looking ahead. Size is also only one of many factors with inbreeding depression.

I doubt if you were to strictly self-pollinate, that very many generations could be attained without some serious problems cropping up.

5/17/2013 11:48:08 PM

Oak Grove, Mn

I have been trying the multi-generation self-pollination with the assistance of friends and new growers. The best of 5 plants goes to the next year. With the difference in growing environments, size is not the only factor in choosing which self to continue. I am thinking there might be a correlation between doubled vines and doubled dominant genes.

5/18/2013 6:11:32 AM

San Diego

Wiz,

The 980 was grown about ten times last year by various growers in my area and some far away. Out of the ten grown, 1 980 went double, all others were normal. That's pretty small odds for doubling. So who knows:)

5/18/2013 12:13:17 PM

Little-TON - Colorado

ThiZ one haZ come a long way and wont give up...It waZ every other node waZZ a double...but I cut and took the doubled main off and went with the other tip...and it haZnt missed a beat...main growin..6" a day...ThiZ plant is agreZZive...!

5/20/2013 9:56:34 AM