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Deer Park, WI

Im not seeking a list, rather a definition.

Care to take a stab?

If you had to explain to "cousin eddy" what a proven seed is, what's your answer?

12/16/2012 11:01:51 AM

Germany

IMHO, the abbreviation for a proven seed stock of a particular cross. The one and only (as far as GPC list goes) planted 1140 Finders is a proven seed, as it´s a seed and was proven to have the capability of growing a giant. In this case "proven seed" applies to THE SEED. If most of the 1140 Finders seeds (some of them will be planted in 2013...I´m pretty sure) grew 500- pounders, then the cross seems likely to not become a proven seed(stock). Proven seed (as a proven seed stock) probably means that most of the seeds grown so far grew a giant (whatever definition applies here). 5 years ago it probably was a proven seed if it had produced 3 or more 1000+ pumpkins. Nowadays, 20 seeds planted with 3 or 4 1000+ pumpkins (maybe between 1000 and 1200 lbs) doesn´t reflect the current understanding of a proven seed. Scale shifts with the benchmarks. 20 seeds planted, 15 out of 20 pumpkins in the range 600...900 lbs could also speak for a proven seed, it just depends on the grower. Just imagine the people who grew the 20 seeds were in there first year with AGs.
Summary: I´m curious to see others´ definitions for "proven seed", too ;-)

12/16/2012 11:16:40 AM

Muddy Waters

A proven seed is one that has grown pumpkins that are near/egual or greater then the parent.Just my humble opinion.

12/16/2012 11:17:21 AM

Muddy Waters

Keep in mind near is very vague Like 1200 is near 1500

12/16/2012 11:19:57 AM

Germany

...an easy job for a 50 Todd, and a hard one for a 1725 Harp to become proven ones.

12/16/2012 11:39:23 AM

Mill Bay, British Columbia

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/nepga/ViewArticle.asp?id=28

12/16/2012 12:02:47 PM

Eastern Pennsylvania

It's quite simple, a proven seed produces an orange pumpkin 100% of the time.

12/16/2012 12:11:57 PM

norway , maine

proven-shmooven

12/16/2012 12:12:55 PM

Lodi, California

well, a proven seed in short is a seed that has been planted multiple times with success. ex. 1140 Finders, 1725 Harp 1385 Jutras, ect

12/16/2012 12:14:51 PM

Lloydminster/AB

When I think of a proven seed I consider the top weight it has grown. I'm thinking that if it has grown a fruit within say 15% of the world record it is a proven seed. Now this year that means 1700+. Thats a pretty short list.

12/16/2012 12:39:40 PM

Menomonie, WI ([email protected])

I hear you ORANGENECK...A Proven seed is a seed that has the charecteristics you wish to achieve at the end of the season. Thing is if we all plant proven seeds think of all the excellent seeds that never get a chance at their potential.

12/16/2012 12:52:48 PM

Omaha, Ne.

a proven seed is like a proven fishing lure. more advertisement, more used by different people, more confidence in growing (using) But if your soils not right (or no fish) you'll still wouldn't have any luck.:)

12/16/2012 12:57:12 PM

South East

Dear cousin Eddy,

In reality there are no proven seeds. When something is proven it could be considered established beyond doubt. But with any seed there remains the possibility of a dud (mutation etc) , or even a non germing seed.
That beeing said, most growers call a seed proven, when it has grown several (more then two) large competitive fruit over atleast one but usually two seasons. It then has proven to have the capability of consistenly producing COMPETITIVE fruit, but with results at times way beyond average and sometimes under.

Its like buying any products Eddy, you are looking for good reviews, and offspring is the only review for pumpkin seed. If a specific seed has lots of large competitive offspring, or orange, or even green competitive offspring depending on what you want to grow , then you know you it has done well in the past and that it might do the same thing for you. If has lots of offspring, but nothing special, then the seed is proven to. Proven not to be worthy of selection.

Good luck Eddy

12/16/2012 3:44:43 PM

Minnesota

Its is when you open a seed up, varify it is in fact a seed in the shell! then you make a fist, pound the table and declare, I have proven it, this is a seed!!!

12/16/2012 5:38:46 PM

(rocky) Bonney Lake Wa.

My opinion is that a proven seed is one that has been grown by different growers in different areas and the seed has PROVEN to grow pumpkins in each area grown and grown big,bigger or biggest consistantly.

12/16/2012 6:58:14 PM

Mnt.pleasant ,tennessee

Richards answer gets my vote

12/16/2012 8:05:35 PM

Colorado

To me its a seed thats grown something real big.Either top 20 or record size in the region it was grown.Also a seed thats grown a lot of large specimens to show consistency such as 1409miller.

12/16/2012 8:26:17 PM

Minnesota

I thought I nailed it :) ..for example, 1068Wallace, 998Pukos, 1161Rodonis have proven to be proven seeds to name a few.

12/16/2012 9:02:36 PM

Minnesota

Pumpkinlink is good for looking for proven seeds. You can see what it has grown, on many seeds.

12/16/2012 9:04:08 PM

Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia

The old benchmark was 1000 lbs. When you think of it, the term "proven" is perhaps outdated. The elite growers will not hesitate to grow their own unproven seeds, maybe the rest of us should take that leap of fate. It's nice to know how a certain seed has performed, but with today's genetics, a lot of guesswork has been taken out of the equation.

12/16/2012 9:11:44 PM

Wi

Definition of a proven seed:

Anything Quinn has grown :)

12/17/2012 9:01:42 AM

Little-TON - Colorado

Dear CuZ..
LetZ blow the dust off of thiZ.....and a few poundZ...
Are you a Riverboat gambler??
http://www.bigpumpkins.com/nepga/ViewArticle.asp?id=28

12/17/2012 9:45:15 AM

Hinckley MN

"proven" is in the eye of the beholder. with the WR now over 2000lbs, I think any seed that has grown a fruit over 1500lbs is "proven" for size. Any seed that has grown a HD winner is "proven" for color and shape. The seed is only about 1/4 of the equation. I'm still working on the other 75%...soil, knowledge, and coping with the weather.

12/17/2012 9:47:42 AM

Pocatello ([email protected])

Sounds like we need a definition for the word "proven", particularly when putting seeds up for auction.

IMHO, the term proven is inadequate. It must be accompanied by a list of known pumpkins that are exceptional for weight, or color, or some desirable trait. I think most of the time this is the case.

We should remember, however, the genetics discussions of the past. Every seed sits somewhere along a curve of potential. If we were to formally declare a seed stock "proven", then we would need to have at least 10 to 15 samples, and we would need to track the bad ones as well as the good ones. (And, we cannot easily track the skill of the grower.)

So, Chris said, "Anything Quinn has grown." This is exactly the point. Quinn could grow one of my seeds, and next year it would be commanding $150 at auction, lol.

12/17/2012 1:47:40 PM

Little-TON - Colorado

Ah... Now that would be question we havent aZked of the heavy hitterZ on panelZ....Which seedZ didnt make it in your patches thiZ year.. There haZ to alwayZ be some right that for whatever reason...didnt grow right/had some weirdness to it? Stem split here, BES there.I agree, perhpas the word PROVEN haZ been becoming diluted some.....

Our Riverboat gambler seedZ now line out at 1500+ ?

12/17/2012 2:24:42 PM

Johnston, Iowa

Wiz brings up a great point. We see the results of a grower's best that are brought to the weigh-off, but don't normally hear about the dud that was left in the patch and never brought to the weigh-off.

And that is as Paul Harvey would say is "the rest of the story" . . . that we will probably never know.

12/17/2012 2:46:56 PM

Freedom Is Just Another Word For Noting Left To Lose

I thought the only way to prove a seed was through a paternity test???????

12/17/2012 4:56:17 PM

San Antonio, tx

I'd say a proven seed for me would be a seed that produces well for your region. For instance in Texas you'd want one that can take the heat and grow big enough to get people to notice. Like 711 Fielder, the Texas record and 782 Barber which grew the Alabama record. Ill be growing both.

12/17/2012 6:12:56 PM

Pocatello ([email protected])

Here is some food for thought... I grew a 1725 Harp. Yes, I did. It came out to about 250 pounds, and was one of the saddest plants I ever grew.

Maybe it had to do with that terribly cold spring we had in 2010. Maybe it was my soil in that spot I put it. For sure, it had to do with my lack of skills and commitment as a grower. Maybe I got one on the bottom end of the curve, but I doubt it.

But none of you know about it, because I'd be ashamed to put the info out there... I certainly didn't take it to any weighoff. It was simply forgotten.

So, how many are there out there? Fess up! lol...

12/17/2012 7:00:54 PM

Deer Park, WI

Lots of interesting contributions here. Thanks to all that have replied.

Having illuminated that there is no clear, standardized definition, it begs the question as to whether the label can be standardized?

Could we, as a diverse group of enthusiasts with different values and perspectives, come to a consensus regarding what a "proven" seed is?

To what purpose, one may ask? Mr. CliffWarren, always insightful, hit the nail on the head: seed commerce. I too feel seed commerce could benefit from having a standardized label(s) that provide both seller and buyer some insight into the "track record" (ie: relative quality/value) of a particular seed stock.

As vocal advocate for the sustainability of local pumpkin clubs, an organization dependent upon seed commerce could conceivably use standardized labels as a means to market their products (seeds).

I've already seen a number of clubs/orgs proclaiming "proven" seeds in their lots, however, in the absence of a generally accepted definition, what is the value of such a proclamation?

Mr. Hackney took a stab at a definition in his Riverboat article. Noble attempt. where can this discussion go? Is his definition acceptable? What is missing?

Food for thought. Could the hobby as a whole benefit from standardizing the "proven" label???

12/17/2012 7:07:33 PM

Mnt.pleasant ,tennessee

This post has PROVEN it would be a good drinking game

12/17/2012 7:21:24 PM

Saegertown Pa.

A proven seed is a seed that on average throws above average weights compared to other seeds. I have to disagree with the opinion that me or anybody else can plant any seed and grow something big. a lot of growers don't do there research, the ones that do give them selfs the best chance at growing something big. if you won't to give your self the best chance for something big network with other growers and do your research.

12/17/2012 7:35:24 PM

Pocatello ([email protected])

I think the Hackney article was right for its time. But the hot seeds of today are created differently from back then. Back then certain key crosses made things happen. I'm thinking the Lloyd seeds, and crosses made off from them. Then, the thick wall 898 Knauss era commenced. When a seed showed this trait, we latched on to it.

Now, we see heaviest X heaviest, and it seems to be working very well. We are in this 3rd era, except that those who go back earlier than I (the late 90's) can probably identify eras from the earlier days. Actually, the Hackney method probably per-dates the crossing era.

12/18/2012 1:11:18 AM

Germany

Apparently, the "proven" status can´t be standardized, as it would be impossible to determine the "on average" because many of the low-weight pumpkins of a seed stock might always be missing from the statistics. Therefore, I would find it helpful to advertise seeds with examples of their potential (...grew XXXX HEAVYHITTER 2012, YYYY NEWBIE 2012, ZZZZ WHOTHEHELLISTHAT 2012 etc.) and then it´s up to the folks who might become interested in the seed if they consider it "proven", just "hot" or part of "riverboat gambling".

12/18/2012 4:32:12 AM

Muddy Waters

Great POST! This has proven like most things in growing thats it's a matter or IMHHO. LOL for In My Humble Honest Opinion.

12/18/2012 5:57:52 AM

Central Minnesota

The biggest issue I have with the "proven" lable is the fact that most "Proven" seeds are almost always the most "Planted" seeds, therefor they should be "proven". The most "Planted" "Proven" seeds also sell at the highest "price".

What we need is more people hitting on their own seed. Peter Sweet grew his biggest pumpkin this year on his own seed. This year, that seed will be planted more, by other good growers and most likely will become "Proven" or not. I don't consider one giant pumpkin grown on a seed "Proven" but I do look at who grew the seed and how many were planted when I consider my definition of "proven".

It would be nice to have some kind of standards for seeds that that takes into account the number planted. I will leave the actual seed names out of these examples but:

Seed A planted 3 times over the last two years, grew 2 over 1600 pounds.

Seed B planted 63 times over the same period and has grown 3 over 1600 pounds.

Obviously these seeds may be planted more than I could find but are both of these seeds proven? The difference in selling price between these two seeds is over $100 with seed B being the higher.

12/18/2012 9:23:47 AM

Cameron

4-5 years ago most growers agreed that a proven seed was one that grew pumpkins over 1000#. That was what every grower wanted to achieve when they started out in this hobby & growers were thrilled to know they got a seed that has produced a big pumpkin in the past. If you asked new growers today what their goal was, most would say to grow a 1000#er.
Everyone will have there own opinion on this. In my humble opinion, seeds that produced pumpkins over 1200# have proven the ability to grow big pumpkins. How big can they go? Who knows, that's up to the growers ability, knowledge & their growing conditions.

Merry Christmas Everyone.
Jane & Phil

12/18/2012 10:06:42 AM

Wisconsin

I agree with a system similiar to what MNFisher is saying. I hate to compare pumpkin seeds with cattle but here goes. My dad and I used to dairy farm. Bulls in the cattle industry were "proven" only after they were crossed with many female cattle of different genetic types.....different dairy farms.....and different geograchic locations all across the US and Canada. Then all the data is collected on how the female offspring performed as a cow (milk production, butter fat production, body structure, etc) then its compared to all the female offspring of "other bulls" in the country and therefore....."proven". So my point here is (in my opinion, LOL) the way to "prove" a pumpkin seed would be to take certain seeds and put them into the hands of as many different types of growers and regions as you possibly can. From the "heavy hitters" all across the US and Canada to all the "average" growers like myself. Then take the information on how well those pumpkins did from all those different growers and regions and track how well they did on average against other seeds. In the end you would have a seed that was...."proven". Again.... just my opinion. Happy Holidays to all!

12/18/2012 1:56:49 PM