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Rhode Island

JUST FINISHED READING A COUPLE POSTS ON THE GREEN SQUASH FORUM.

MANY OF US REMEMBER BACK IN THE DAY WHEN A GREEN SQUASH COULD OUT WEIGH GIANT PUMPKINS OF THE SAME OR SIMILAR MEASUREMENTS.(THE REASON MANY YEARS AGO WE CROSS BRED GREEN SQUASH INTO THE PUMPKIN LINES)----GREEN SQUASH WERE DENSE.

WE ALL KNOW AS WELL THAT AS OF LATE THE GREEN SQUASH HAS FALLEN QUITE A WAYS BEHIND THE GIANT PUMPKINS GROWTH CURVE.

PERSONALLY,I BELIEVE THERE IS A PLACE FOR THE GIANT GREENIE RIGHT ALONG SIDE THE GREAT PUMPKINS AT OUR WEIGH-OFFS.
ITS JUST GOING TO TAKE SEVERAL SEASONS OF BREEDING BY MORE GROWERS AND,BY THAT I MEAN MORE OF OUR HOBBIES TOP GROWERS.

DOES ANYONE HERE THINK OUR HOBBIES TOP GROWERS COULD NOT GET THIS DONE IN A RELATIVE SHORT PERIOD OF TIME? YOU GET ANY OF OUR HEAVY HITTERS INVOLVED AND SEVERAL SEASONS LATER ?COULD WE CONSIDER IT "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" ?

PERSONALLY I THINK PROMOTING THE GREENIE TO GREATER HIGHTS (WEIGHTS) WOULD BE A GREAT UNDERTAKING FOR THE EXECUTIVES OF THE GPC TO CONSIDER.

MANY WAYS TO GO ABOUT IT BUT THE KEY IS THIS.
GET OUR SO CALLED HEAVY HITTERS INVOLVED, SEE HOW FAST THOSE RECORDS CLIMB.
WHAT DO YOU THINK GUYS LIKE QUINN WERNER, RON WALLACE, OR ANY OTHER NUMBER OF OUR TOP GROWERS (YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE)COULD DO IF THEY PUT THEIR MINDS TO IT?

HOW TO GENERATE INTEREST AND MOTIVATE THESE TARGETED GROWERS IS THE KEY. WHAT DO YOU SUGGEST?

THANKS
PAP

10/18/2012 10:17:49 AM

Central Minnesota

My son agrees with you for sure. He is already bugging me to grow squash next year. I certainly think the Heavy Hitters could advance sqaush in a short time. It becomes a numbers game, the more good growers making crosses, the better chance of hitting on those crosses.

10/18/2012 11:30:44 AM

Colorado

Maybe gpc could call it vegetable of the year for a few years.Publicity and prize money might sway growers that are on the fence.

10/18/2012 12:08:37 PM

Cornelius, Oregon

I'm in... and don't even have a new patch yet.

10/18/2012 12:23:34 PM

Little-TON - Colorado

I support the green movement, the new quest for another 1 TON fruit!

10/18/2012 12:39:56 PM

Little-TON - Colorado

Put a greeny in your patch COJOE!

10/18/2012 12:42:40 PM

Cornelius, Oregon

Oh suggestions. Perhaps a little something above and beyond the GPC. Call it the 'Go Green in 13' sweepstakes!!!

10/18/2012 12:43:20 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

To put some numbers on the issue:
Total number of each fruit type in the 2012/2009/2006 GPC data
1547/1804/819 Pumpkin 2009lb/1725lb/1502lb max wt by year respectively
249/134/93 Watermelon
241/84/na Field Pumpkin
199/102/43 Tomato
177/153/74 Long Gourd
141/141/100 Squash 1221lb/1236lb/1131lb max wt by year respectively

6 years ago squash were 2nd to pumpkins in number of entries. This year, squash are last of all fruit types. While others are increasing quickly, squash entries are merely hanging-in-there in absolute number.

10/18/2012 1:49:16 PM

Cornelius, Oregon

Here is another interesting thought. The 990 Hebb 2000 was the new WR squash 12 years ago. It still sits in the mid 60's as the largest squash ever grown. That same year, the 1140 Stelts was the WR Pumpkin. Not even in the top 1300 pumpkins ever grown once I get all the weights in from a couple missing early 2000's years. A 990 pound squash wins nearly any squash weigh off. An 1140 pound pumpkin, not so much.

10/18/2012 2:31:58 PM

St. Thomas Ontario

Here's a little motivation to go green...:)

First and foremost-It's gonna be much easier these days to have the largest squash on the planet than pumpkin.

-Not really one to hang up my ribbons and trophies (a cheque makes me feel much better;) but that Guiness certificate sure looks good in a mahogany frame;)

-A 1487 (or more) lb new world record squash is attainable by hundreds of growers out there right now, without allot of 'ammendments' to their growing regime... (I know a 2010lb behemoth pumpkin is a long way off for me).

And finally, a %100 green/blue/grey squash may have it's challenges but having a 14-1500lb emerald beauty will be 'big news' and a gaurenteed point of great interest by most visitors to your patch. In addition they look great along side those orange saphire gems most growers (including myself) have enjoyed growing over the years.

All the best

Joel

10/18/2012 4:15:31 PM

Minnesota

Makes sense to cross back into the green squash with a giant pumpkin.

10/18/2012 5:23:51 PM

Cornelius, Oregon

For instance... 848 Mackenzie x 898 knauss hehehe and it was 25% heavy. Oh the plot is thickening as we type.... oh crap, imagine the Pleasure Dome at 25% heavy.

10/18/2012 5:30:17 PM

Albuquerque, NM

Well I'll be the one to voice a "squash" to this... The masses like pumpkins because they are of fairy tales and growing big ones makes those stories seem to come to life. In fact our pumpkins may be getting bigger but they are already looking too much like squashes anyway..... And I don't think Cinderella riding in a giant green squash would have been the same.

10/18/2012 6:43:44 PM

Corryton, TN

It will take green to get the heavy hitters to go green. Not that they necessarily want the money but it creates more competition. If the decision was made prior to planting season to have similar prize structure and a separate category at most of the weigh-offs, I think the intrest would be immediate. This might strain some sites for finances. I'm sure most club officers could find a solution within their budgets.

10/18/2012 6:53:08 PM

St. Thomas Ontario

I know I don't personally grow pumpkins because of what I read in 'fairytales', I grow them because they're 'freaks' and they get huge and they make peoples eye's pop out when they walk through my garden. If squash can pack on that kind of weight and get some eye 'pop-age'...i'll grow them too:)

p.s If Cinderella is riding in a winning pumpkin nowadays she's got one funny lookin' ride (ain't no glass slipper going on that foot;) but they're awsome on another level.

Grow what cha like and like what cha grow:)

All the best!

10/18/2012 8:51:55 PM

Muddy Waters

I'm growing them this year! 1002 & 1486 It would be nice to see interest grow in the green.

10/18/2012 9:15:09 PM

Bristol R.I. USA

Pap. This year I had about a 400 lbs squash growing I didn't enter it because it seemed to small. It stayed on the lawn as a decoration looking back at things I should have entered it at the weighoff. Shame on me.

10/18/2012 9:17:36 PM

(rocky) Bonney Lake Wa.

Jim Sherwood put an interesting cross this year. He put the1383 Stelts into his 1485 Jarvis that he grew. The squash went real heavy as did his 1495. Growing that squash and possibly putting in some more kin or Squash into it either way that has some EXTREMELY interesting possiblilities.

10/18/2012 10:10:03 PM

(rocky) Bonney Lake Wa.

Ok I totally hacked that up....... "1495 Stelts into the 1485 Jarvis"

10/19/2012 12:10:02 AM

(rocky) Bonney Lake Wa.

1486 Jarvis

10/19/2012 12:10:24 AM

Netherlands

@ bathabitat

There is a very large, almost invisible, group of squash growers in Europe, particularily in Belgium and Holland. The past few years, Belgian weigh-offs have averaged about 20 squash entries per weigh-off (Duisburg and Kasterlee). I would estimate that about 30-40 squash are weighed each in year in Belgium and Holland, that never make it into GPC statistics.

In Holland we have three growers that grow about 50% squash and 50% pumpkins. Their average PB for squash is 1105 lbs (2 of the 3 have green jackets) and their average BP for pumpkin is 1131 lbs. So that seems to happen when growers take squash serious.
Here are the results of the heaviest squash grown by Belgian and Dutch growers since 2007.
2007 - 1234
2008 - 978
2009 - 1047
2010 - 1106
2011 - 1197
2012 - 946
(ave. 1085 lbs)
Not bad for two of the world's smaller countries and no prize money at any of the weigh-offs.

10/19/2012 6:13:55 AM

Netherlands

@ Ron

Several growers have tried the squash x pumpkin and reverse crosses. By the time you have elimated the orange colour from the squash, haven't you also eliminated all the other "beneficial" characteristics of the pumpkin? It's a question I have never heard a definitive answer to. Logic would seem to suggest that all the crossing needed to get rid of the colour also gets rid of most (or all) of the other pumpkin characteristics. But it is probably a lot more complicated than that.

10/19/2012 6:22:07 AM

Muddy Waters

HOW TO GENERATE INTEREST AND MOTIVATE THESE TARGETED GROWERS IS THE KEY. WHAT DO YOU SUGGEST?
We could get a sponsor to put up 2 grand for biggest greenie in 2013.I would help find sponsor if we feel there is enough growers that would support this I believe there is Pap.

10/19/2012 7:15:02 AM

Corryton, TN

I sure hope your wrong Brad. I few of us have been growing these crosses to get green and some are ready for dirt. Not every seed will be stacked with the "beneficial" genes but most should have plenty.

10/19/2012 7:31:54 AM

Muddy Waters

How about 1000$ 500$ 300$ 200$ Top 4 get paid.We can make this happen!

10/19/2012 7:35:22 AM

Lexington, Ky

One of the first things that should be addressed before proceeding any further...the color rule. Even with the GPC's concrete definition, we still have tremendous bitching regarding the light green shades of recent squash.

I'll step right up and say that I have "judged" photos of light green squash in the past and in no way would I have deemed them true squash...but I'm not there in person, chances are, my opinion would change if my eyes were on the fruit instead of the screen.

Funny how just a few years ago, growers would get mad if their pumpkin was ruled a squash. The current pumpkin color rule solved alot of problems but it created a limiting factor for squash.

There's no secret in the fact that you can only grow as big as your geographical locale.....south of the Mason Dixon line.....forget about it.

10/19/2012 8:40:34 AM

(rocky) Bonney Lake Wa.

@ Brad
I agree it is a bit of a crap shoot the first time out because you dont really know what you may get. Jims 1495 was very orange, but the for example my 1272 and Daves 1807 had quite a bit of green it them. I think that if some one was to grow this one out and either cross it into either more squash gens or more pumpkin in it the possiblilities on either side could be good. Another note is that Jims orange pumpkin went way heavy,the 1495 I grew was orange and went 152 heavy and another grower Jeff Uhlmeyers 1495 was orange and went 170+ heavy. The variable I see here is that we have seen what the 1495 is capable of and the 1486 Jarvis speaks for itself. I am seriously considering growing it and which ever I get greenie or kin I beleive that the possibilty of going big and green or big and a little orange (pumpkin) is very inticing to me.

10/19/2012 11:56:12 AM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

RE: AG x squash

I think bringing green into an "AG" is probably less complicated than it seems.

see:
http://www.bigpumpkins.com/msgboard/ViewThread.asp?b=24&p=384465

Also:
http://www.bigpumpkins.com/msgboard/ViewThread.asp?b=24&p=422783

@Brad's "haven't you also eliminated all the other "beneficial" characteristics of the pumpkin?"

Consider this breeding plan:

P1 - Start with the best available Squash clone and the best AG clone. Cross those once, (maybe twice as a back up) to make the F1.

F1's (AG x Squash - 1st generation offspring) are all exactly 50% squash + 50% pumpkin genetically - that's true because there's no mechanism for the mother and father genes to mix between each other yet. - (none will be green though, unless green was hiding in the AG - then 50% should be green. See past posts above.) - Many plants would be good here, but a handful would do - select largest one and go to F2.

F2's (Selfed or sibbed F1's - 2nd generation) - ON AVERAGE these offspring, as a population, will be 50% squash + 50% AG, but because of Mendel's Law of Independent Assortment any individual plant COULD theoretically be anywhere between 0% AG to 100% AG genetically (but a little less than 100% assuming we select for green from the squash). That's because all the genes from AG and Squash can get mixed up more or less "independently" in the F2. (This law also is why about 1 in 4 of this generation should be green.) We'd want a reasonably large number (say 30+ total) of F2 plants to get grown out to select from for the next generation. 4 or 5 plants in the F2 won't do the process justice.

Selecting the biggest green one from the F2 and selfing it should yield good family that produces big green fruit. .... OR Cross the best green one from the F2 with another big AG clone and start again at the F1. ON AVERAGE this new "F1" would be ~75% AG + ~25% squash - probably even more AG if the sele

10/19/2012 1:32:03 PM

Willamette Valley, Oregon

So that's a long way to say that there's no reason AG genes would be eliminated. Through proper selection they could be enhanced.

10/19/2012 1:32:26 PM

Cornelius, Oregon

Lets jump this thread to the squash growing board... having an idea or 5....

10/19/2012 1:32:39 PM

Little-TON - Colorado

Yup...sign up for the Greenie Club....Nice start Pap!...way to go

10/19/2012 1:51:34 PM

Enumclaw, Wa

this is much like breeding for color in horses with Homozygous and Heterozygous genes mix in the punit Square from Mendelian Genetics throw in loci and recessive genes etc. This is definitely a science project with a lot of variables for one person to try. I believe bathabitat's comment on 30 or more plants is the way to go. You need a lot of committed growers working to a plan committed for several years following the same script with no deviations. This is scientific i.e. genetic research. Weather variables (Temp, hunidity, rainfall), soil variables, altitude, etc. are probably too hard to control. Fertilizer and chemical affects the same. Lot of committed growers needed with starting seed bases.(30 plus male and females donated) Great seminar discussion for Las Vegas. A couple of different paths to go down. True green on green to start or green and orange heavy. And remember when breeding for one quality you often carry things you don't want. Serious culling the comes into play.

10/19/2012 5:51:25 PM

Little-TON - Colorado

Excellent breakout session for Vegas....Ill approach the committee with it.

10/19/2012 6:00:03 PM

Springfield, Missouri

676* Wells grew a green/white squash for me last year it went over 30% heavy... Heavy green genes are still out there. There are a lot of growers that have been doing AG x Green already.

1119.5 Razo (1367 Rose X 848* Mackenzie)
1037* C&P (848* Mackenzie X 1432 C&P)
1025 Sherwood (848* Mackenzie X 723 Bobier)
1012.5* Pitura (1055* Pitura X 1231 Pukos)
947* Parsons (848* Mackenzie X 1177 Conley)
833* Razo (962* Razo X 1068 Wallace) pollinator grew 1521
749 Burnst (1053* Werner X 824* Burnst)
622* Grande (848* Mackenzie X 1470 Wallace)
356* Zaychkowsky (218 Andrews X 898 Knauss)

I am all for a Greenie club!

10/19/2012 6:32:25 PM

bliss,n.y.- heart of Wyoming County

Excellent thoughts Pap!

10/19/2012 8:00:50 PM

Albuquerque, NM

The general public really doesn't want to see a giant squash.... Grow what u want personally, but dont expect it to WOW the masses....While it might be easier to grow big... Does the press really come out to cover and see the biggest squash, watermelon or tomato late sept or October? NO.... Why is that?... Doesn't fit the October jack o lantern halloween pumpkin social mystique fun.

10/20/2012 12:50:20 AM

Rhode Island

most of us grow because we enjoy a challenge and enjoy the competitive spirit.no one really grows for the press or any attention we may get.

10/20/2012 2:55:55 AM

Corryton, TN

You nailed it pap.

I think that's why we don't see more squash at most weigh-offs. They usually have to compete with the pumpkins. Look at the results that the Damariscotta weigh-off in Maine got this year. Set up a good competition, promote it, sweeten it a little with cash and the people will come.

10/20/2012 6:14:32 AM

St. Thomas Ontario

Sorry but the statement-'The general public really doesn't want to see a giant squash'-is speculation and conjecture your honor;)

I've seen first hand what happens when a squash is the largest fruit at a weighoff. Norfolk Fair is one of the largest in Southern Ontario.(clip from paper)

"SIMCOE - Last year, Norfolk County Fair visitors witnessed a colossal squash weighing in at 1,486 pounds.

The weight of the squash outweighed the weight of the largest giant pumpkin – which is crazy!-said fair manager Karen Matthews."

As far as anyone knows in the 171 years of the Norfolk County Fair, this is the first time a squash beat out a pumpkin on the scales"

according to organizers the squash was a "crowd favorite", so much so they independandtly and without coercion increased prize money for squash the following year by hundreds of dollars...public wants to see BIG!

10/20/2012 8:22:28 AM

Long Island,New York

Squash is always a crowd favorite when one shows up reasonably big with decent color.....add lbs over 750 and more/better color and the attention goes up. This idea that noone wants to see a squash or that "promoters" dont want squash is false and only spread by people who either don't know, have never seen a good squash at a wieghoff, or have pro-pumpkin/anti-squash sentiments. It just isnt true. Ask anyone who has grown one and taken it to wieghoff. Squash are an oddity like giant pumpkins were 10 years ago before everyone grew them. Sometimes i even think pumpkin growers get jealous if theres a big greenie there taking all their attention...lol.The general public dont like squash is as false as selfed pkns don't work and the name at the end of the seed makes it better seed. Grow one....find out.

10/20/2012 9:07:46 AM

Long Island,New York

Growing mixed genetics or crossing with pkns may seem like the way to go but let me toss these ideas out there.....for years the squash were going heavy to chart, now just look at the squash results and you'll see quite alot of the mixed background specimens are not...it could be that the charts have changed to reflect the current state of pumpkins that have been mixed with squash, or that they have been selected for % heavy the last 5 yrs or so...or that squash havent kept up...or that the sq x pkn crosses everyone loves to do have diluted the squash genes...are we losing the qualities that make giant green squash fun?

10/20/2012 9:31:53 AM

Long Island,New York

Also....crossing with pumpkins is fine if you have a 5 year plan with 2-3-4 squash plants at your disposal. If not...and all the un-completed "super squash projects" out there are proof....your just wasting your time and making things difficult for someone who wants green, grows a seed thinking its a squash and disappointing them with a pumpkin.

10/20/2012 9:34:19 AM

Long Island,New York

My opinion is to keep the green green...self or cross with a green producing greenie and select from the more successful ones...JUST LIKE PUMPKINS. Not everyone wants two squash in the patch to get pollen...self it then...or work it out with local friend so that you both grow greenies that work into your genetics plan.Or do what I do....go down to the local pkn commercial grower and sneak a couple seedlings in the field at a known location....monitor the place a bit and grab flowers when needed. Try for a prizewinner-type patch so your seedling doesn't look out of place...put a ziptie around the vine in a non-conspicuous place so you know thats your plant....of course if this is bad, wrong or illegal dont do it.....lol

10/20/2012 9:40:15 AM

Albuquerque, NM

It's just my opinion that bigger isn't better when you are sacrificing the quality and aesthetic of the fruit itself. Now that size is genetically getting easier why not refocus putting the aesthetic genetics back in that we are losing, now that would be a challenge, but I think the focus now is just bigger, so we will just be rewarding big green or yellow blobs...

10/20/2012 10:25:40 AM

South East

Its not a beauty contest Mac,,its about weight.

10/20/2012 10:32:22 AM

Albuquerque, NM

Got it... Sorry I voiced my opinions.

10/20/2012 11:02:26 AM

South East

dont apolagize mac, we just dont agree. This is after all a general discussion forum. And in a discussion you can voice your opnion and back it up with arguments. You did, and so did we. If you want us to agree, then we we can agree on disagreeing. ;)

10/20/2012 11:08:03 AM

Muddy Waters

Yes it's good to disagree.Good healthy debating!Thats how we draw conclusions & move forward.If everyone agreed with me they'd all be right!lol

10/20/2012 11:41:21 AM

Huntsville Texas

need a really good children's illustrated book popularizing giant green squash

10/20/2012 12:38:39 PM

St. Thomas Ontario

"Cinderella and the Green Giant!"...a greater story never told (called it first, lol:)

10/20/2012 1:39:16 PM

Cedar City, Ut

looking at both side of a issue ,, is proper way to make the final call on forum,, in my opinion,,

10/20/2012 2:14:13 PM