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Granite Bay-California

So what went down with Westervelt's 1610 lb-er.?? I heard one of the officials was poking a little to hard and pushed a hole in it deeming it unfit.

Was there any witnesses to what happened?

Should the official who was poking at it be able to have a pumpkin in the contest?

Whats the rules?

Thanks for any info...

10/11/2012 6:52:28 PM

Cedar City, Ut

wow really? Interested to know also!

10/11/2012 7:47:56 PM

Muddy Waters

Were they poking on a dill ring?

10/11/2012 7:51:05 PM

Granite Bay-California

I guess is was 1621 lbs not 1610. Supposedly it was the blossom end, one of the officials was using bailing wire for a poker.

10/11/2012 9:01:24 PM

Mulino, Oregon

The pumpkin was judged 'correctly'. Jack LaRue was the initial judge who made note of the hole. The hole was right next to the blossom. The hole was probed by Richard himself as well as Jack and myself, as the GPC representative. No undue pressure was needed to penetrate the cavity. There were other witnesses as well.

Nobody wants to be part of this type of occurance, but in order to maintain the integrity of the hobby and event, it is necessary to check 'EVERY' suspect area on the fruit.

It is still a 1621 lb pumpkin and an incredible accomplishment. One that Richard should be proud of!

Jim Sherwood, West Coast GPC Representative

10/11/2012 9:29:06 PM

Granite Bay-California

thanks for the response Jim.

Is bailing wire the norm for using as poker,

seems extreme vs. straw as many use?

10/11/2012 9:41:07 PM

Mulino, Oregon

Straw is not and never will be a proper probe for any event.

a hole is a hole regardless of size.

10/11/2012 9:55:11 PM

Wi

I believe STIFF wire is right in the GPC guidebook as a suitable tool.

10/11/2012 10:01:05 PM

Parker, Co

These are great questions ! So...we are supposed to probe with wire? Man, I never knew that. We have used straw many times as a probe. Guess we didn't know this rule. And is it normal for GPC reps to also probe pumpkins? We will have to get to the bottom of this. It is probably time for us to address these judging methods. Richard lost a lot with this DQ! We were not witnesses but we would love to hear from them . This is Cindi, not Pete responding

10/11/2012 10:06:52 PM

Parker, Co

Chris...I am reading the rules off of the GPC site and don't see anything about using a wire...is there another handbook you are talking about? Thanks

10/11/2012 10:28:05 PM

Granite Bay-California

"Straw is not and never will be a proper probe for any event.

a hole is a hole regardless of size."

Yep, can't find a ruling on it anywhere on the GPC site, maybe Im missing it.

Tree source of info?


Back to another question I had, with sometimes thousands of dollars at stake is it fair to have officials with pumpkins in the same contest they're judging?

10/11/2012 10:48:05 PM

Minnesota

Should maybe have a standard tool with a certain size penetrating area that applys a certain amount of pressure. No guess work and consistent every time

10/11/2012 10:54:58 PM

Parker, Co

I am with you joe...wire seems a bit harsh and straw is a bit soft and fat....there should be something that would be better.

10/11/2012 11:03:16 PM

Minnesota

I guess what's the definition of wire? I could put a pointy solid 1 gauge wire through anyone's pumpkin

10/11/2012 11:11:03 PM

Granite Bay Ca

Dear GPC members. What happened at the pumpkin fest at Half moon Bay: Two pumpkins were in front of my 1621 pumpkin.Neither of them were looked at or checked. It seems my pumpkin was singled out. Without my knowledge someone asked for a piece of bailing wire.To my surprise Jack Larue said
there was a soft spot he wanted to check. One of them stepped into a door on the back wall and came out with a roll of bailing wire.
Larue started a small hole.He then asked me to check. I told him there was no hole.He said yes there is! And called Jim Sherwood over. He said Jim you try it. Jim took the wire and continued shoving the wire until it went into the pumpkin.I was totally shocked. they told me I was disqualified and never offered to have anyone else to check their finding. I also feel they shouldn't have been judging and participating at the same time. In my judgement this was totally wrong. I HAVE BEEN ROBBED Richard

10/11/2012 11:14:35 PM

Indiana

it used to be in the old rules that 1/8 inch wire 18 inches long

I've known Jack and Jim for some 15 years. I obviously was not there, but find it hard to believe they would do such a thing.

Please post photos of the inside of your pumpkin and the seeds, along with the outside picture with a quarter next to it.

Thanks.

10/11/2012 11:27:02 PM

Western NY

Wire is an acceptable tool for inspections. You can view the guidelines in the handbook (http://www.gpc1.org/PDF/Weigh%20off%20Handbook.pdf - p.6).

At a few of our weighoffs up here use a 8 or 10 inch plastic zip tie for probing holes. Any soft spots are dug out using a metal spoon. However, if it is bad enough to require a spoon, it usually isn't going to pass muster.

10/11/2012 11:31:46 PM

Parker, Co

I have to agree with Richard. He had a sound pumpkin before Jim Sherwood shoved a piece of bailing wire into the cavity. We all know how thin the wall is around the blossom. Here was a huge pumpkin which would have won second place. Jim is from Oregon and Jack is from Washington. They both had pumpkins entered at Half Moon Bay.If they had any questions about
dick's pumpkin, they should have called for an inspection from some California growers who did not have a pumpkin entered.Myself, Leonardo Urena, and Jose Ceja were there and none of us had an entry. With such a huge pumpkin and with so much at stake they took it upon themselves to disqualify Dick's 1621. This is just not right. Pete Glasier

10/11/2012 11:45:31 PM

Parker, Co

andy, i like the zip tie method. we have used one of those before. i don't think i like the roll of baling wire for only use on ONE certain pumpkin. they put themselves in a bad situation that could have been avoided by having some rep from california there. cg

10/11/2012 11:52:08 PM

Tenino, WA.

I have been working the stage moving pumpkins on and off of the scale for over 15 years at Half Moon Bay. The pumpkins are brought to the stage on a pallet, next they are lifted, examined for holes and serious rot spots including the underneath of the fruit. There were three of us checking the fruit on the stage one grower and two non growers. I noticed a small hole on the left side blossom just prior to the pumpkin going to the stagging area. Before touching the sucpected area I asked the half moon bay staff for a probe. Next I notified the grower and the GPC west coast rep to please come to the fruit. The grower was allowed to probe the fruit first next I probed the fruit followed by Jim Sherwood (GPC rep). Two inches no resistance. We incresed the length of the wire and probed again this time to a depth of about 10 to 12 inches again no resistance. Care was taken to never exert pressure on the wire, the wire never met resistance. No one wants to see a nice pumpkin disqualified but a hole is a hole. His pumpkin would have placed second. I felt bad for Richard, he lost a lot possibly a GPC jacket but to not make the call would be a diservice to every grower behind him in the contest and the rest of the GPC events and growers. After the event was over I had two long time growers (heavy hitters) tell me that they spotted the problem while the pumpkin was still on the truck.

Jack La Rue

10/12/2012 12:03:38 AM

Tenino, WA.

Every pumpkin was checked. Richards pumpkin was not singled out. I made the final 10 to 12 inch probe not Jim. Richard was standing on my left and just sighed as he whitnessed the probing. I have been one of the judges at HMB for at least 10 years. I was on the stage in clear view of everyone checking fruit. We checked at least 30-40 fruit before Richards fruit was up. There was ample time for an experienced grower to take my place. Pete you saw me on stage you could have had the job if you had offered, you did not. The same goes for Jose or Leonardo no one came forward. Someone has to do the job. Over the years I have inspected hundreds of pumpkins at HMB. This was the first time (to the best of my knowledge) that we had to make this call. I hated making the call it was an awesome pumpkin. But I will not turn a blind eye, I will not let it slide by, I will not cheap anyone or everyone behind the entry. I have been growing these giants for 28 years I know how it feels to lose a big one, been there done that many times it hurts. After 28 years I know what a hole looks like and it does not matter who's pumpkin it is a hole is still a hole.

Jack La Rue

10/12/2012 1:24:41 AM

Wi

Just because you use a wire doesn't mean the operator SHOVES it into the fruit. The point behind stiff wire is that it won't deflect under pressure. Therefore unlike zip ties that can turn a corner wire will not.

10/12/2012 9:00:46 AM

Honesdale, Pennsylvania

Well said Jack.

10/12/2012 9:26:57 AM

Wi

Pete, I have trouble opening the GPC weigh-off handbook from time to time so here's a direct copy past from the handbook.

"The judge may probe any crack, hole or opening into a pumpkin, which visually appears
that it may extend into the interior cavity (in the presence of the grower only). A 36-
inch by 16th of an inch metal probe (can be any type of hard wire etc, just as long as it is
rigid and won’t bend easily) will be provided to the judge to probe suspect openings.
An opening where the probe meets no resistance into the interior cavity will disqualify that
entry from competition. All decisions by the judges are final."

10/12/2012 10:08:12 AM

El Paso TX.

Wasn't there and do not have an opinion one way or the other but it does bring up an issue -- Should all sites require that judges are not participants of the event ?? Seems like it would be a good idea to keep those judging from participating in the competition.

10/12/2012 11:20:49 AM

Glosta

Could the 2 "longtime growers (heavy hitters)" come forth and verify the hole was there on the truck?

10/12/2012 11:31:07 AM

[email protected]

JD these question's get asked every year when someone thinks they were wronged.
Having impartial judges, Super idea in a perfect world, but who knows more about pumpkins than the growers themselves. It wasn't one judge that DQed the fruit. It was at least 2 very well know and respected growers.
If this was an issue, and there were all these growers without fruit, Why didn't they check the fruit themselves rather than wait 3 or 4 days after the fact to have an opinion.

This Exact same thing happened to my daughter, her fruit weighed 917 pounds, (a new BP, and lost Prize money) it was DQed at the weigh off. It sucked the big one, BUT it is what it is.

10/12/2012 11:33:10 AM

Pocatello ([email protected])

JDFan raises an interesting point, but some things are really cut and dried. A hole is a hole. If the wire goes in without resistance, that's really a bummer, the pumpkin is not sound and is disqualified. All of us who have been here for any length of time know this. In the situation as described, I can't see how the judges would cheat, in front of everyone with their own reputations on the line. I just don't see that as realistic.

I would have no problem with 99% of active avid growers who double as judges, these gentlemen included. While I have not met these people personally, from what I gather their reputation and character are not questioned.

At most small weighoffs, the only people qualified to judge are also growers. That is, until you really know these fruit and what to look for, how can you judge?

Now, if I was the organizer of a large event, I'd arrange for judges ahead of time. Judges who know the rules and procedures and and know giant pumpkins, who don't have a stake in the event. But that is a responsibility of the organizer.

10/12/2012 11:55:45 AM

Honesdale, Pennsylvania

How about a unified GPC probing tool.. to be distributed to each site along with the ribbons and plaques to be used by the judges. Shouldn't cost to much for a plastic or wire type device.

10/12/2012 12:14:41 PM

Cornelius, Oregon

I have been around this sport for over 2 decades now. Known Jack since my first year, and introduced Jim to the craziness known as Giant Pumpkin Growing. I have watched as Jack and Sherry disqualified themselves from a world champion pumpkin due to a pin hole in the blossom that was not even a soft spot and easily could have been hidden. Again, the 1016 Larue would have been WORLD CHAMPION. I was there when Jim went to harvest his pumpkin for the big Canby weighoff and we systematically picked up his biggest, then his second biggest.. third..fourth..ect down to last true giant and every one had a small crack or hole on the bottom, some no more than a 'piece of bailing wire' but, they were holes. He took a 100 pound cull to the weighoff.

I do not know the grower of this pumpkin, but I know the complaint. I see this kind of thing happen nearly every year it seems. Someone gets slighted here, someone disagrees with a call of pumpkin/squash there (been on both sides of that one), or the telltale drip from a pumpkin that you didn't see at home (did that too). You bet it sucks, been there done that, but what sucks worse is to have to look at the grower and tell them that their crowning achievement is not a valid entry.

10/12/2012 12:29:04 PM

Cornelius, Oregon

Personally, I am kinda pissed that this is what I saw when I popped open bigpumpkins this morning. I thought we were starting to move past this kind of thing. If the fruit was compromised, it was compromised and to call into question the intergity of a GPC rep and judge with the history of Larue, on such a personal level, wow. If the grower thinks the pumpkin is still not an achievement, they are wrong. Hole or not, its still a huge pumpkin. Will the seeds be worthless since it was a DQ?? Go ask the 705 Stelts if it was worthless, and please tell me its not about the money.

God knows I am not perfect. Made some mistakes along the way, but speaking from experience, the rules are there for a reason. Keep everyone on a level playing field and make our hobby/sport something not based on a 'good old boys' club, but rather a professionally run organization with standardized guidelines that can be followed. Something that for many of us growers, are proud of being part of building.

10/12/2012 12:29:11 PM

SF Bay Area, California

Imagine how a grower feels having his prize fruit disqualified on the scale. Now, imagine how a fellow grower feels having to look a grower in the eye and disqualify his fruit.

The glory of a winning fruit at a weigh off soon fades. The pain of harsh words lingers on......

10/12/2012 12:47:17 PM

Pleasant Hill, Or

I am one of the other growers present when this fruit was judged. My pumpkin was sitting right next to his teady to be weighed, so I witnessed the entire thing. Jack was inspecting all of the fruit. When he looked at Richards blossom, he immediatly went over and got Jim and Richard. I saw what they were looking at and it was an obvious crack that had a slight amount of rot atound it. I watched Jack probe the crack, with Richard looking over his shoulder from no farther than 10 inches away. The probe slid right in with no resistance. Jack immediatly handed it to Richard, who then was able to penetrate the cavity. I saw your face then Richard, you knew and even acknoweledged as much with your reaction.

As was already said, a hole is a hole. The correct call was made. Jack and Jim genually felt bad about it. As did every other grower there. They offered Richard their condolances, which he accepted. For Richard to call out Jack and Jims integrity now is wrong and you know it Richard.

Thad Starr

10/12/2012 2:44:34 PM

California

Maybe going forward it might be a good idea to have at least one of the judges be someone who does not have a pumpkin entered in the weigh off. I do not know what the GPC rules state about this.

I know, or know of, most of the people in this post. It is too bad this happened.

10/12/2012 3:06:31 PM

Maine

^^^^ Good post Mr.Starr

10/12/2012 3:06:38 PM

San Diego

I think the most important aspect of our hobby with competition should be honesty. And that starts with the grower of the pumpkin. We see our fruit everyday for 100 plus days and we growers know them well. If there is an area of "question", the grower should be the FIRST person to acknowledge it when it is being inspected at a weigh off. This is standing up for what is right even if it means your fruit will probably get dq. I have been growing for 11 years and I always inspect my fruit very closely if it is gonna go to a weigh off. There is no way I wouldn't know about a questionable area on my fruit. Then to call people's integrity out after the fact who are rock solid? That's what is not right, plain and simple.

10/12/2012 3:41:56 PM

Topsfield,ma.

John, You hit the nail or should I say wire on the head. Well said! Woody Lancaster

10/12/2012 5:56:47 PM

Taylorsville, California

I'll chime in as someone who knows Pete Glasier and he is the epitome of classy and a hell of an honest, fair man. Seems to me his integrity is being questioned as well, for telling it as he saw it. Pete's been growing as long as some of us have been alive and I tend to think he knows pumpkins. And as someone who works with wire on a daily basis it sure can penetrate SOLID objects with little effort, let alone a pumpkin,,just saying. Not calling anyone dishonest, a cheater or calling their credibility into question.

10/12/2012 6:49:31 PM

South East

time for an official gpc "probe tool"....lol

10/12/2012 8:14:12 PM

Colorado

Its not the tool its how you use it-lol

10/12/2012 8:33:22 PM

Eugene,OR

Well said Vince (anaid_tecoud). I've helped judge at HMB a few years back (when I didn't have an entry) & had to disqualify a fellow grower & friend. Not fun. I've also lost a big one at HMB, but probed it myself at home before coming because I didn't want to have to go through what Dick went through on Monday. Even less fun. It is not easy for anyone involved. Let's learn from this, make some improvements in the system, & move on. It certainly shouldn't be made into a North vs. South conflict. I don't want to have to have to wear colors when I go to a pumpkin growing contest.

10/12/2012 10:39:16 PM

Paradise Mountain, New York

I think a lot of this truly stems right down top the grower as the grower his self may or might think his pumpkin or squash is in question that it might have a bad spot. I feel most judge are honest and long term growers in this hobby of growing these giants. But,,,,, what happens if you had a pumpkin at 1831.5 pounds in first place and the last pumpkin that is being weighed might win the whole weigh-off! But the guy (Judge) has the 1831.5 and in first place and he check the next pumpkin to be weighed with a wire and uses just a hair to much pressure and in she goes? I honestly feel when It comes to a question of a soft spot, someone else should check it out instead of someone a Judge in the contest. Using a wire? Why shouldn't all weigh-offs use a 1/8 wooden dowel? This has a blunt end. A piece of wire cut with and wire cutter leaves a sharp end no matter what wire cutter is used. Try it yourself. I feel the 1/8 inch wooden dowel should be a tool to be used by all weigh-off sites and nothing else. A plastic tie is pointed and shouldn't be allowed. Just my two cents to make all weigh-off's fair to everyone

10/12/2012 11:26:11 PM

Colorado

I think a thick wire is a ideal tool for probing a hole.No pressure necessary.

10/12/2012 11:45:02 PM

West Sacramento Ca.

This controversy goes much deeper than wire and judging at Half Moon Bay.It is my belief that no one "cheated" Rich intentionally.I know Rich very well and he has disqualified his own pumpkins with tiny pin holes in them himself before. Last year at elk grove was the most recent.I think we all agree that the proceedure needs to be improved and that a mistake may have been made by accident;we can't go back and so we will never really know but with Petes and other well respected growers opinion that a mistake was made I would like to step up and ask the GPC officials to please make their own unbiased evaluation and award Rich Westervelt the GPC jacket in Las Vegas. I realize that every DQ and decision can't be scrutinized but in this case I feel it is more than warranted. I realize that decision will set a pressident for future challenge"s but let's put that aside and do the right thing.Scott Henkin

10/13/2012 2:33:13 AM

[email protected]

Scott there is no Jacket for 1600 pound fruit anymore

10/13/2012 9:28:58 AM

Mulino, Oregon

Scott unfortunately you are missing the point. Yes, improvements do need to be made at Half Moon Bay. However in this case NO mistakes were made. That pumpkin was judged absolutely correctly.

10/13/2012 9:37:06 AM

Ohio

In all due respect to all growers involved , and as long as Jack and Jim has been growing ,and all their time they volunteer to help this hobby and weigh offs through out their many many years, I really cant see Jack or Jim purposely shoving a probe all the way into a pumpkins cavity just to disqualify Richards pumpkin to see another pumpkin advance for the prize money! I just dont see it! And they way im reading this post , I'm getting some of you might be insinuating they did this and you dont trust your judges? Now this is just my opinion here , but if Jack or Jim did happen to probe Richards pumpkin into the cavity on purpose , and they knew they went a little to far causing the probe to breach the cavity ,then Im sure Jack or Jim is a honest enough guys that they would step up at at that very moment it happened and say they felt the wire pop through into the cavity and Richards pumpkin is good for the weighing. I personally do not see someone trying to sabatoging a pumpkin here just to advance themselves.

10/13/2012 9:39:30 AM

Long Island,New York

"I think we all agree that the proceedure needs to be improved and that a mistake may have been made by accident;"


We do?

10/13/2012 3:22:01 PM

So. Maine

Been growing AG's 23 years seen this type and a number of different types of disqualifications . I've been involved in judging at some of the GPC sites and have had to disqualify entries . I would be HONORED to have either Jack Larue or Jim Sherwood judge at our local GPC event .

Just a few words of caution to those judges who have to make those tough calls ..... IF you have a irrigation pump to supply water to your plants , set up motion detectors / cameras to record intruders who would want to damage it to "get even" with you for making a disqualification call ...

AL Berard

10/13/2012 8:44:58 PM

West Sacramento Ca.

I absolutely do get the point. I was speaking of the 3 at 4000 pound jacket.As far as Jack is concerned he would be welcome at any weigh off any time I have nothing but respect for him. Rich is a good friend of mine and I got envolved in a dispute obviously way above my stature in the pumpkin growing community judging by the rancor in The replies to my post. I felt aweful for Rich knowing what that jacket meant to him and did what I thought I should do. I'm not attacking anyone or accusing anyone of cheating. I'll certainly be more careful in the future when posting an opinion. I did not intend to impugn any judges. Scott

10/14/2012 2:03:11 AM

Parker, Co

Great reply Scott.

10/14/2012 9:22:05 AM