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Lexington, Ky

Grafting has been floating around this message board for sometime now and no one has really spoken out about it...until now. Now that someone has captured a world record, folks are starting to get up in arms about it. If Don Young grew a world record long gourd from a graft, would we see similiar sentiment?

Will grafting popularity "take off" now?! Obviously, graft discussion is long overdue...I can see the river of Whine heading this way. Genetics and rootstock aside, it's still a damn watermelon as far as I'm concerned. Why is this process any different than the multitude of other things that we do to obtain large fruit and veggies?

7/24/2012 7:44:48 AM

Hinckley MN

give it an *

7/24/2012 8:22:29 AM

Netherlands

International rules state that a fruit or vegetable must be grown from one seed and on one plant with no (unnatural) modifications.

A graft means two seeds, two plants and an unnatural modification.

It is absolutely essential to keep species separate or you can throw away all rule books.

7/24/2012 9:26:54 AM

Western NY

Do you have a link to these international rules, Brad?

7/24/2012 10:33:40 AM

Lexington, Ky

Thanks for the reply Brad. What is the sanctioning body for the international rules? I'm curious why the rule wasn't written as such: "grafting not allowed".....

I agree that it's essential to keep the species separate and that's the very reason why we should embrace grafting. If grafting is "illegal", growers will continue to graft and most likely become tight lipped about it.......

7/24/2012 10:34:49 AM

Southeast Texas

as for as im concerd the 291kent is still the record to me..there wasnt no bodyfrom here over there to see the 307.but it dont matter that so called wr.will be beat anyway here IN good ol US OF A.

7/24/2012 12:03:58 PM

Southeast Texas

i mite try grafting a melon to a pig weed nothing hurts them...dammitt..lol

7/24/2012 12:16:57 PM

The bottom of New Jersey

Why would somebody from "over here" need to be there to verify a new world record in person? No one else in the world is to be trusted unless you are from the U.S.? That is ridiculous.

As far as the issue of grafted plants goes, unless the governing bodies are going to visit everyone's patch during the growing season, I don't see how you can disallow a fruit from a grafted plant. As 1320 points out, it will become an underground practice that no one will officially acknowledge is going on. Make a separate category for them if you want so growers without grafting abilites still have a record they can shoot for realistically, but don't stifle progress. Grafting is a widely used and helpful tool with many different applications in horticulture.

7/24/2012 2:14:04 PM

Netherlands

The sanctioning body is officially Guinness, which has its rules mostly from the British giant vegetable experts. Together with a few English WR holders and advice from other WR holders, I govern the rules for the EGVGA and IGVGA, perhaps the largest international governing body for giant vegetables.

You could contact Guinness for the complete regulations for the entire Natural Plant World. The giant vegetable rules fall under this category and only include the specific deviations to the general rules.

7/24/2012 4:24:50 PM

Netherlands

Of course the growing world could decide to change the rules and allow grafting. It would mean that field pumpkins, long gourds, marrows, zucchini, cucumbers, squash, watermelons, cantaloupe, etc could all be grown using one or more Atlantic Giant pumpkin plants. The best grafter wins.

Genetic modification (in a lab) can also be done in secret. So can injections into pumpkin flesh (sorry if I got you thinking about that one - ah ya, the scabbing... a bird got it when it was young). But most WR holders are pretty public people and hopefully somebody will spot what they are doing.

7/24/2012 4:32:57 PM

Bethlehem CT

I would imagine if Guinness does not allow grafts they will have to throw out just about every world record for tree fruits as they are just about all on grafts. What about Roses, nuts, grapes etc. Grafting is a commonly accepted practice that has been around for centuries and is even mentioned in the bible. I am confused to say the least. I did not expect this kind of a reaction here.

7/24/2012 5:45:50 PM

Ohio

Ive often thought about growing 2 pumpkin plants and grow the one pumpkin plant (stump) in a close location that i think the other plants pumpkin will be growing, then i would try to graft the secondary that comes off the pumpkin into the other plants stump and see what would happen. So if I would do this would it be considered a * or would you consider this a official pumpkin that could be weighed as a world record? I myself would call this a world record if one was grown.


Whats not natural about the 301? The graft is by another plant , which to me is natural.. Whats the diffence in using a graft verses feeding a synthetic fertilizer to grow a bigger pumpkin? Since the synthetic fertilzer is not natural and you used this on a pumpkin that grew the world record then it also shouldnt be considered and a * should be in front of it. Let the record stand, its not like he was using micro chips inside his watermelon, just sayin.

7/24/2012 5:49:06 PM

Billerica,Massachusetts

i'm grafting an AG with an oak tree i'll let you all know how it turns out

7/24/2012 5:55:25 PM

canal winchester ohio

So are we to believe that NO ONE in the states is trying grafting this year....crickets..crickets...crickets..

7/24/2012 7:30:04 PM

Goodwood, Ontario, Canada

Of course people are grafting. Rumor has it that a giant tomato plant was successfully grafted to an atlantic giant pumpkin stock. The Tomatoes grow about 15 lbs a night but are all mushy in the morning. I think the trick is to pick it from the vine while it is still growing (4:30am) and get it weighed at the 7/11 deli scales. I won't be surprised to hear about a 10 lb giant tomato this year.

7/24/2012 8:14:45 PM

Bristol,RI,USA.

the heavyest fruit wins !! could care less about International rules
hey duch brad when was the last time the Netherlands had a world record.... ho ya never!! that is the problem with the rest of the world they have to many rule and try to govern the by kings rule and word smithing. bottom line biggest fruit that is solid wins

7/24/2012 9:23:41 PM

Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia

Brad grew a WR squash and marrow, came up a few grams shy of the WR beetroot. I don't necessarily agree with him on this, but he knows his stuff.

The melon was weighed at a GPC site and conformed to the rules. It is the heaviest watermelon ever. So it may or may not be an official WR according to Guiness,some care and some don't...I don't.

7/24/2012 9:42:26 PM

anytown U.S,A,

This is not for the people to decide. It is the sanctioning body that needs to decide what the rules are and need to be followed.

7/25/2012 12:35:57 AM

Netherlands

Calcubit, at least four WRs have been grown in the Netherlands in recent years. You can apologize at your convenience. I take it that by "the rest of the world" you mean all non-US countries?

I'm glad that you could care less about International rules. Without international rules you can stop growing. Regardless which rules you make, people will find a way to circumvent them. For instance the long cucumber class. A number of us grow at WR level, but we are never going to break the record, because somebody managed to get his (long) gourd to be recognized by Guinness as a cucumber. And nobody is ever going to break the beet record because somebody managed to get Guinness to believe their sugarbeet was a table beet.

It is not a matter of agreeing with me or not, I am simply stating the rules as they stand now. And what I think, or the EGVGA thinks or the GPC thinks is not important. They don't govern the ENTIRE growing body. Like Al says, it is up to them to decide the rules.

7/25/2012 2:52:38 AM

Wi

I'm going to speak for the 98% of the other growers / Americans and say that we as the vast majority embrace and respect our international competition and consider them to be our friends.

7/25/2012 9:59:14 AM

Glosta

If you put a 350 Chevy small block in a VW bug and win a race does it count? And if so did you win with a VW or Chevy?

7/25/2012 11:54:02 AM

Southeast Texas

cris its like this if Mr bryson would of beat your 1810,with his 1818 and it had 2 or 3 stumps on the plant ,dont tell me you wouldnt say anything about it. i no you would i would raise all kinds of hell.

7/25/2012 12:09:31 PM

Wi

Paul you are likely correct. I'm not sure how I feel about this multiple grafting vs. growing naturally. It's like putting two engines in a race car. You can do it, but in racing you can't compete legally with the guys with one engine.

I'm guessing the overall view of the general public doesn't care how the next WR pumpkin is grown. The question is do we care as growers?

7/25/2012 12:41:19 PM

virginia

LOL,,,It is true words what Paul and Bry said

7/25/2012 12:43:26 PM

Southeast Texas

cris im not saying dont like the feller, he mite be a good guy,just count the melon and show it as a record.cause it aint rite in my book.just my opion thats all.

7/25/2012 12:57:50 PM

Bristol,RI,USA.

Brad sorry words were a little strong! I do apologize!! But i really don't care if there is one two or three stumps to me it is just more to contend with. The end product is one solid pumpkin! why are we going to limit anything, why dose there have to be restriction, It is not like we are calling if a field pumpkin they are AG's just think this may be the thing that levels the playing field ! A guy with limited space can compete with a guy with ten times the space and the new world record could be 3000lbs
It still takes a whole lot of effort to get one to the scale and that is what it is all about to me!
As for natural are clones natural? Most grape vines and fruit trees are grafted! Are they natural?

7/25/2012 4:09:42 PM

Mission Viejo, CA

Seems easy enough to add a category for grafted fruit. I think adding categories to competitions makes things interesting. An organic grower competes with other organics; a small patch grower competes with others who have limited space. As long as it doesn't rob the joy of growing, does it matter?

7/25/2012 4:37:27 PM

South East

the gpc had no problems with it and it was weight at a gpc weigh off. Nobody grows for the guinness book,,thats just an added bonus for most. A tradional graft doesnt use two or three rootstocks but just one, chosen for its specific qualities. So it was one plant. With one stump, right?
Next to that,,no grower is required to explain anything about his or her plant at a weigh off, we weigh the heaviest fruit. Original root or not, he grew the heaviest melon ever. And if you ask me,,the risks in grafting outweigh the benefit,,because how many grafts go wrong?

Should this talented grower be punished honest, or honored as a fellow grower who grew something special,,

I think the answer is ovious,,so why not stop the witch hunt and just say congrats!

7/25/2012 4:37:38 PM

canal winchester ohio

Just read the " new world record watermelon" post. Not a graft..not a graft

7/25/2012 5:18:03 PM

Glosta

What if you grew a WR on a plant that lost the stump? Would it have to be classified as stumpless? Would it be eligible still?

7/25/2012 5:22:14 PM

Bethlehem CT

We have to decide what is important to us as growers. Is it the largest melon, pumpkin, squash etc.? Or do we make seperate divisions and classes? All I am saying is that we could make all these separate categories if we choose to, at the end of the day I just want to see the biggest pumpkin or melon possible.

7/25/2012 10:27:48 PM

Alaska

Sounds like to me someone learned how to moonwalk really fast? First it was a grafted plant then a vigorous discussion takes place and now it was all just a misunderstanding, no grafting ever took place. Hummmmmmm?

7/26/2012 4:59:32 AM

Cameron

I don't think grafting puts us all on a level playing field. We can learn how to do it, but we'll never be able to compete with growers who have access to the equipment that some professional gardeners have. I'm with the idea of 1 seed, 1 plant. This could hurt the hobby to the point that we'll lose many growers because they can't compete with the guys that can graft plants. Just my opinion.

Phil

7/26/2012 10:15:20 AM

South East

I dont have the alaskan long days, or the the moderate temperatures of RI.
I dont have have a greenhouse either, extending our season and cooling or heating up our plants protecting it from the elements at all times.
I,m not a proffesional grower, like for some who have a great place at there disposal.
I,m not a farmer like many on here, with tractors, plows, spraying equipment and acres upon acres to rotate land and work on next years soil.
I have no heavy hitters in my close circle of friends with whom i talk on the phone, who help me, give me tips, seeds or just share info with.
I dont have tons of money, to buy the best seeds, the most expensive fungicides or install the best fertilizing injector system.
I dont have the time to spent because of a busy job.

So with this all said:

Was there ever a level playing field?

If you want long days? Move to alaska
Wonna grow a big one? Move to Ri
Dont have a greenhouse? Build one
Dont have a proffesional facility? Become a proffesional grower
Dont have a farm and acres of land? Save up and Buy it.
No Heavy Hitter buddies? Go to weigh offs and suck up.
Dont have the money? Its all about priorities

In the end its about what on the scale. Theres always some grower out there who: Has more money, more land, more equipment, more experience, a better seed, a better climate.

deal with it. lol ;)

7/26/2012 12:03:05 PM

Little-TON - Colorado

Pack it up BIZ>...we are heading to Rhodie!.....

7/26/2012 1:20:56 PM

Bristol,RI,USA.

when the tailgate drops the bulsh-- stops! cooks well said !

7/26/2012 1:27:30 PM

Bristol,RI,USA.

wiz you will need to pass the test to stay here ! lol

7/26/2012 1:28:19 PM

Little-TON - Colorado

I'll pass....I grow in COLORADO

7/26/2012 3:00:52 PM

Weatherman

Where is Amelio when we need him?

7/26/2012 4:34:16 PM

Long Island,New York

ok so ... i believe it was two-three years ago Eddy Z added up all the seed sales and figured out how muc money was generated from selling seeds for clubs, wieghoffs, seminars, charity, etc. It was determined that seeds pretty much fund the whole she-bang. So now we're growing world records with grafted plants...the engine behind the growth is the plant....what is the seed worth if theres a different rootstock doing all the work? I think the "value" is in the rootstock....and all the clubs/seminars/wieghoffs may have just taken themselves out of the game.........

7/26/2012 9:12:05 PM

Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia

No way Glenn. Wait until January when, as usual, the most prized/publisized/marketed seeds will command top dollar, regardless of the origin or method. The 1789 est. Wallace never hit the scale, yet many people are growing it this year with good results.

An Italian grower may or may not have grown a WR on a grafted plant. Fast forward to October when the 2012 Wallace or the 2012 Jutras will fetch a handsome price. Honestly, if given the chance, what watermelon grower wouldn't grow a 307 Bartoli if given the chance. This is getting silly, if we want to talk plant manipulation, I can think of many examples that defy nature.

7/26/2012 9:45:38 PM

South Bloomfield, Ohio

I believe you to be right G. For years, clubs have been relying on seed auctions and seed sales to fund their weigh-offs but, with so many clubs out there competing for those dollars from buyers and bidders, it gets tougher each year.

Factor in the grafting of plants to create world records and we have to re-think our fund-raising efforts. That's why it is so important to concentrate on soliciting sponsors locally. Pounding the pavement is going to keep clubs viable going into the future.

7/26/2012 9:56:46 PM

Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia

That was true long before this grafting issue came about Joe. There is still a lot of money being generated from seed auctions, but now it is more or less distributed among 40 groups instead of a handful like there was only a few years ago. I do agree that clubs need to be more creative with their fund raising efforts, but that is another topic.

7/27/2012 5:56:18 AM

Cologne Brescia Italy

I'm with Tina and Frank

7/27/2012 1:50:03 PM

Muddy Waters

I agree with Frank & Tina,except the sucking up to HH part.Just because you talk to a HH or try to make friends doesnt mean your sucking up.But I would like to someday be the suckee rather then the SUCKER!LOL!

7/28/2012 11:29:45 AM

The North Coast

If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking 'til you do succeed.

7/28/2012 2:00:02 PM

Muddy Waters

lol!

7/30/2012 12:41:44 AM