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Hinckley MN

Is it true that growers are hiding the seed counts of pumpkins to drive up the cost at auction? I'm new to the hobby, but that smacks of deception and fraud. I am aware of the addage, "buyer beware", but grower organizations should strive to honest and above board in their dealings. If a fruit had a low seed count, the bidders sneed to know, because some may want to avoid the sterility issues associated with low seed count genetics. If there are several hunderd seeds the bidders need to know that, too.

After the big stink about a code of ethics, I am surprised this kind of deception is being all but ignored.

11/9/2011 11:43:33 AM

Alaska

I agree. Not a good idea. Excellent way of sowing seeds of distrust.

11/9/2011 12:39:47 PM

Germany

In my opinion, the seed count has alot to do with how pollination was done and how the pollen had been given a chance to reach its goal. A couple of clones of a plant under various conditions might well produce X-tremely different seed counts, although their fertility is basically identical. You need to count the number of pollen put onto the female, you need to describe each spot where the pollen got to rest, and it depends both on temperature and moisture as well as on the age of the female and the males (how many hours after opening) and the viability of pollen and permeability of the female associated therewith. Then, you need to find the ideal equation which divides the seed count through all of those potentially negative kinds of influence, and you would come up with a number which should reflect fertility of the pumpkin plant much better. ...seems impossible to do that, isn´t it? A pumpkin with 100 viable seeds (from a female pollinated with one male at 10 am) might reflect the same fertility as a pumpkin with 300 viable seeds, from a female pollinated by 2 males at 7 am or something like that.

11/9/2011 12:40:59 PM

Erin,Ontario.

Smacks of price fixing.....

11/9/2011 1:27:20 PM

Central Minnesota

Seeds counts seem to be down for many growers and I believe a lot of that has to do with the heat during pollination this year. Certainly not the only reason, but a big one I believe.

You hear about low seeds counts more this year.... because they are low for many growers.

11/9/2011 1:46:44 PM

Upa Creek, MO

I am not sure about the heat during pollination theory. We had near record heat (+100 index for a few straight weeks), and it is much warmer down here than the upper midwest and northeast and I had ~400 viable seeds from my 1059.

11/9/2011 3:00:44 PM

Madison,Wisconsin

I am growing the only two viable seeds from Chad's 1451 (1810 x self)in a greenhouse over the winter. It will be interesting to see if the offspring have very low seed counts as well. If they do that might provide evidence of a genetic component. The environment will be pretty much the same for all the fruit grown in the greenhouse and a comparison of the seed counts can be done.

11/9/2011 3:08:12 PM

El Paso TX.

I wouldn't be surprised if some of those special amendments being used to make the fruit grow bigger might have some effect on the fertility of the fruit as well since they are designed to get the fruit to focus more of the plants energies toward producing larger fruit it might also have some effect on fertility as well.

But that is another topic -- I think this one was more to ask why it seems that some growers have decided to not announce how many viable seeds were in some of their fruit until after the auctions are finished so that the price they go for might get higher on speculation that they are fewer than they might actually be ! (since it had a large positive effect on the price of the few 1810 seeds last year when there were very few seeds inside of it.)

11/9/2011 4:11:26 PM

Redmond, Washington; U.S.A.

When a gardener grows a big pumpkin it is their choice whether or not to disclose seed counts and distribute them to the masses. Last time I checked its a free country. If I ever grow a world record (which is a long shot) and I want to bake the seeds in my oven with cheyanne pepper and salt, THAT IS MY PREROGATIVE.

11/9/2011 5:37:06 PM

Bristol R.I. USA

I think this os getting put of control. I don't see anyone trying to hide seed counts. If you wanna plant the seed then you'll do what you need to do to secure that particular seed. If an opening bid is high or to high for your price range then so be it. You either buy it or you don't. I really don't think anyone really wants to drive up the prices of seeds making them out of range for people. It jut doesn't add up. If seeds don't get planted they don't get proven.

11/9/2011 7:19:31 PM

Breslau, Ontario, Canada

Kenny,

It has been decided that the seed count for the 1807 and 1818 will be disclosed after the auctions.

11/9/2011 7:55:03 PM

Western PA

Ben,

Here is a link to the GVGO message forums where a grower asks how many seeds where in the 1818.5 World record.

I believe the grower that responds is a GPC representative in Canada

http://gvgo.ca/mb/index.php?PHPSESSID=d6d28ebcbd0519bc2c46fc07f265cdc8&topic=2426.0

This statement seems to be coming from a pretty reliable source, If this statement is true why in the world would seed counts be kept secret till after the auctions????

With out a doubt it is every growers choice to do as they please with there own seeds,but the only logical reason I can think of is to increase the demand of these seeds at auctions which obviously increases the prices of these seeds.

To me and many others this is a type of price fixing and is wrong.

11/9/2011 7:55:13 PM

Western PA

After the auctions.......

Seems a little odd to me if true!

11/9/2011 7:56:32 PM

Bristol R.I. USA

I'm not sure what to think about any of this. Does it really matter though. A grower can do what they want. If it bothers you don't plant the seed. Its your choice to do so. I understand how it may appear to be deceitful or draws certain conclusions in some people's minds but thats their choice to do that. With all this talk about this stuff I wouldn't ever consider planting anything other then seeds that come from the club or my own seeds. If a 1385 was being auctioned off you'd get a ton of bids off the rip. The auctioneer sets the opening bid and you bid. Its your choice to go higher or lower. if your budget calls for big bids and you really want that seed then go for it. If not then you'll have to find another seed or plant your own. I've heard a lot of people talk about potential seeds that are capable of growing world records that will probably sit in a bubble or box. Here's the chance to test the theory. Also i've seen on every seed auction a "marque" or petagree seed on every auctions docket...example 1161,1385,1725 so at least bidding on one is within reach. A for me i'll grow within my pocket book and plant the club seeds that have the genetics to grow a monster. Through the generosity of certain growers I have access to good genetic for the price of a bubble. All anyone needs is within reach. I'll leave the speculation and theory to the tabloids and psycic readers. As for kennytheheat is concerned I say " health and long life to you, a child every year to you,a wife of your choice to you, a land without rent to you and may you be dead 10 minutes before the devil knows your dead. Cheers!

11/9/2011 8:36:52 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

If true,that seed counts are known...and being kept secret till after auctions are over...it's one of two things!!!! Sad, or $ wize!!! Both are not (IMHO) in best interest of Howard Dill's Atlantic Giant Pumpkin Growers!!! No disrespect meant to the growers, just to the $ Vampires, who choose to keep the seed count secret!!! If I just cut my nose off, then so be it!!! Peace, Wayne

11/9/2011 8:42:49 PM

Hinckley MN

intentionally withholding important information from buyers is deceptive and unethical. It is a free country (US or Canada) and it is not illegal. It is just unethical and to many,including myself, distasteful. Personally, I think it makes everyone involved look like a bunch of money grubbing crooks. If that is how you want the Giant pumpkin growing community to be perceived, then by all means keep doing exactly what you are doing and watch the hobby fall apart before eyes due to lack of trust between growers.

11/9/2011 9:59:53 PM

El Paso TX.

I agree with you PW - though the good part of it is that chances are there was a decent count - otherwise they would be the first ones advertising how scarce they were to drive the price even higher !

11/9/2011 10:15:42 PM

Kentucky, U.S.A.

It can't bother my tight little pockets!!!!BSD, David

11/9/2011 10:16:20 PM

Kentucky, U.S.A.

I'll have boo-koos of seeds, some good genetics too. Just because I'm a tight wad and won't spend any money on ammendments and extreme goodies, my first year pumpkins are a bit small. But, I'll be throwing seeds away cause I won't be able to find homes for misfits! Get a life, there's folks like that everywhere. I got your seed! BSD, David

11/9/2011 10:22:49 PM

theres always sceptics who dont believe no seeds or low seeds in a pumpkin even when you tell them

11/9/2011 11:23:49 PM

Boise City, Oklahoma, USA

Only thing I do know is they had the 1818.5 and the 1807.5 being auctioned on the GVGO ahead of them being opened... and they stated that if there were less than 50 seeds they wouldn't be getting any and the winning bidder would not be getting or paying for the seed. Since it seems that went down; there are at least 50 in each.

1818.5 went for $400
1807.5 went for $250

It's a free country, indeed, so roast'em, grow'em, give'em away or sell'em, but. Hiding the seed count doesn't seem right.

11/10/2011 4:31:11 AM

Ohio

''It's a free country, indeed, so roast'em, grow'em, give'em away or sell'em, but. Hiding the seed count doesn't seem right.''


Reputable clubs like the GVGO and 99% of the other clubs out there, at least we all know this money is going back to the clubs to support growers and their own weigh offs.

"What doesnt seem right" is that 1% of a so called club out there that made thousands, thousands and thousands of dollars off other growers seeds donations, who mind you,growers was very very gracious enough to donate their seeds to help a certain club out, to then only find out the donations they made to help raise money for this club that the money ended up going back into their own left, right, and back pockets instead of going to that club that has roughly a grand total of 2 members.

" THAT DOESNT SEEM RIGHT" *COUGH*

11/10/2011 6:06:10 AM

Jericho Vermont

It seems the auction world started changing about 3 years ago where new large seeds and large orange seeds started to do better than the so called "proven" seeds at auctions. It used to be the hottest of seeds were 2-3 yrs old and the value was because of what the seed had produced. Than all of a sudden some short seed large pumpkins were grown and there became a frenzy to get the seeds because of low counts. I can see where it would be tempting for an organization to want to manufacturer the short seed rumor to help their financial goals. I am wondering if growers will start spending the bigger bucks on "proven" seeds in the years to come based upon the concerns of honesty that have been talked about lately.

11/10/2011 6:56:31 AM

Little-TON - Colorado

For thoZe who dont have a translator...or a brother who posts in slovenian....Here is what Amelio posted...:

Hello Dr. rer. NAT., I was research assistant in Weihenstephan with the support of students in inorganic chemistry once well two decades ago - but come from soil science and plant cultivation. Next year will I breed study groups for the first time due to the spleen of our 7 son, to have the largest vegetables in the world, and have seed of Jager and price for it. From the United States, I expect even crosses the world record holder of in recent years and others with more Stelts in the background. Now 11 I like but also the 907 Wagler very well. I would try to 2013 the in Bavaria with an equity production from next year (with Christy harps 1725er and the legendary 1161 Rodonis in the background) crossed. Can I get there please seeds of the 907? Also I want to inspire for a new sport: Cucurbita moshata Waltham butternut with total weight of fruits on a plant. Because I use Addcon Bitterfeld and Vattenfall Lausitz as assistance...

Office 2010...Nice ehh?

11/10/2011 10:19:14 AM

Little-TON - Colorado

BrookZ...you dont need a translator my friend.

11/10/2011 10:20:42 AM

Mill Bay, British Columbia

We hear you loud and clear Brooks. You are very right on that my friend. In fact, that club and its founding member should really just realize that they have no credibility left at all...and is a large part of the problem with clubs and fundraising, not the solution.

Pap's said it best once "reputation is everything in this hobby"

11/10/2011 10:32:15 AM

Owensboro, Ky.

NSB,Wiz, Brooks and awl... so what is yer opinion on withholding seed counts, until after the auction is over? Does this help build someone's reputation? Peace, Wayne

11/10/2011 7:48:22 PM

Kentucky, U.S.A.

Hey, Wayne... I think I felt a breeze blowin' Better get my hat on! Hate it when my hair gets messed up! LOL, BSD, David

11/10/2011 8:16:19 PM

Ohio

not sure about that yet Wayne, but I think I know someone that does, let me get Amelio's opinion on his 1970 theory about pumpkins grown with CO and what he thinks the seed counts will be, and then Ill get back to you.

I think this guy is really onto something that could produce 1000 to 3000 seeds per pumpkin, and if I'm thinking what I think hes thinking.... I dont ever think we will have to worry about seed counts again.... Just Sayin.

11/11/2011 6:36:37 AM

Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia

Let's just be honest, witholding seed counts is for one reason only, and yes it is happening. I plan on fulfilling my obligation as main fund raiser for my club, but after this year I'm opting out.

11/11/2011 8:49:40 AM

Onawa,Iowa

Does anyone think that maybe whats being applied to
there plants during the season could be sterilie or
infertile the ability for the pumpkin to reproduce
seeds or no seeds at all !!!!!
I got it narrowed down to a certain product.

11/11/2011 8:17:40 PM

Wi

No it's not that certain product that causes problems.

11/11/2011 9:05:33 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Mr. Boz, sir!!! After readin & rereading an email I received today!!! I finally am in agreement!!! from yer post from 11/10/2011 6:06:10 AM!!! Cough!!! Peace, Wayne
PS...sorry it took me so long!!!! Peace, Wayne
It becomes fairly simple, when you hear the whole story!!!
PS. again sorry it took me so long!!!

11/12/2011 4:52:11 AM

Ohio

lol wayne!

11/13/2011 5:03:46 AM

Owensboro, Ky.

Snoman, would certainly like to here what that certain product is that produces sterility? Or, from Chris...that it's not!!! Peace, Wayne
PS...Brooks, any possibility of an auction pkg. for the KGPG? Grow em BIG!!! Peace, Wayne

11/15/2011 3:00:24 AM

Wi

For some reason the rumor was created that Biotamax causes sterile pumpkins? I have no idea why. All of the bugs in Biotamax can be found in other products used by growers not using Biotamax.

I still feel that for some reason some of the 1161 offspring throw very poor seed counts. It's unfortunate, but that's the way it goes.

11/15/2011 9:15:03 AM

valparaiso, in

I used Biotamax this year, and the seeds were not sterile.

11/15/2011 9:01:16 PM

Onawa,Iowa

Life is short ! Plop Plop Fiz Fiz
I'm ordering that certain product for 2012
I got 525 seeds out of a 1622 Young plant.
And 352 seeds out a 1520 Sperry plant.
I'll trade seeds for girth next year.

11/16/2011 1:32:26 AM