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Glosta

After some thorough research and feverent discussion I may have stumbled onto a link to our growing habits and low seed counts.

Parthenocarpy, development of fruit without fertilization. The fruit resembles a normally produced fruit but is seedless.

Parthenocarpy can also be induced in a diverse range of agricultural species with the exogenous application of GAs, auxins, and cytokinins (Schwabe and Mills, 1981).

Most of the products we use these days contain or induce the formation of auxins, cytokinins and GA's. Seaweed being one of the main ones. and biological stimulants another.

A little of the hormones cannot induce this result but add up all the "Littles" we add and all of a sudden we have "alot"

If you have had a low seed count fruit could you respond with how you use kelp meal, soluble seaweed or any other PGPR biostimulant such as companion, biotamax, etc...

Please include frequency and rate. this may lead to an understanding of how we are chasing increased size at cost of the ability to reproduce it.

10/24/2011 3:08:49 PM

Glosta

I just need to say too, as I know alot will disagree, this is just a theory and can only be proven through proper testing and research, but so far it is closest thing that fits giving our circumstances and practices. so please just reply with beneficial info and start another post if you wish to bash the idea.

10/24/2011 3:19:41 PM

France

Cucumbers are parthenocarpy but still produced many seeds. I use a lot of seaweed, kelp meal etc...

10/24/2011 3:41:30 PM

Colorado

Bry,this year california had monsters with cooler temps. Some of the c. growers have had low seed counts in past seasons with hot temps.Heat may be another factor.

10/24/2011 5:39:20 PM

milford, CT,

Bry,...My 1176 and 1027 grew in the same patch..same spray program, soil,etc ...1176 normal seed count...1027..90 % immature seeds..

10/24/2011 5:51:08 PM

Wi

Heat / genetics is my thought. 1810 and 1561 pumpkins grew 20' apart, treated the same, 1810 had what...26 seeds and 1561 closer to 500.

10/24/2011 6:05:32 PM

Northern California Foothills

I don't think heat is the problem. I haven't cut my pumpkins open up yet this year, but last year both of my pumpkins had good seed counts. I'd like to hear what the Arizona and New Mexico growers have to say since they are growing in the hottest region of the country.

10/24/2011 6:15:53 PM

Glosta

I had 10 days near 100 last year in a row, never happens hear. Plus severe dry conditions. Every fruit had a lot of seeds.

10/24/2011 6:34:36 PM

Marion,IN

Past years most pumpkins had 500-700+ good solid seeds. Used seaweed as directed on the label. However, this year, used the normal seaweed along with something "new" and my solid seeds went down to 42 along with about 200 seeds that are completely empty. I also had temps that were higher than normal as well, so kind of hard to tell exactly. Good thread Bry!

10/24/2011 7:44:39 PM

San Diego, Ca.

I grow in the southern California interior where 95°- 105° days aren't all that uncommon and in 8 years I've never had a pumpkin that had less than 300 seeds in it. I doubt heat is the problem with low seed counts.

10/24/2011 8:04:24 PM

Pataskala,OH

It probably is the fact that gene pool getting smaller every year. Inbreeding for generations will cause mutations especially sterility or in this case seedless pumpkins. Some growers should cross some kind of other type of cucurbit with giant pumpkins to introduce some new genes, and hopefully reduce the mutations. It may reduce weights for a few years but eventually it will catch back up and maybe even push the weights even bigger.

I think this article explains it well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding_depression

10/24/2011 9:12:00 PM

Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia

The theory can actually be witnessed ( not tested ) in the patches of those growers who rely on the methods you propose may be responsible for low seed counts. Chris mentioned his 1810 and 1561, presumeably treated the same, so why the disparity in seed counts. I'll throw Don Young's 1622 07 into the mix, not a single viable seed although his other fruit had viable seeds most notably his 1207. Myself being a novice and more-on, I have over did it on many plants which may contribute to stunted growth but my seed counts are well above normal.

I have my own theory, non scientific but here goes- you have that special seed, it grows a vigorous ADD plant that won't quit no matter what. A fruit developes and a near perfect sink source relationship ( thanks Russ Landry ) results in a fruit with all the attributes we are looking for, most importantly big weight. My feeling is that in some instances, the plant/fruit will utilize most of it's energy in to fruit growth at the expense of other processes including seed production. There are exceptions of course, but Don's biggest in 2007, no seeds. Chris's biggest last year 20 or so viable seeds. These instances are more "one ofs " and not the rule by any means.
Nice post Bry, usually we have to wait until mid February for thoughtful posts like yours.

10/24/2011 9:55:17 PM

Indiana

heat at pollination time

10/24/2011 11:14:28 PM

Breslau, Ontario, Canada

could have something to do with Managanese deficiency?

10/25/2011 1:53:52 AM

Owensboro, Ky.

NP, not meant to be rude, but!!! I say...damn the low seed count...GROW EM BIG!!! ie...if only 2 viable seeds in the 1818.5 Bryson, (hope I don't get struck by lightning for even sayin that) and one of those grows a 2000# pkn next year, then the current process is working very,very well!!!!!!! Granted, several hundred seeds, would be better!!! LOL But, the goal is NOW a One Ton Pkn!!! Not, a 1999 pounder w/ lot's of seeds!!!! Peace, Wayne
Obviously not any help!!!

10/25/2011 3:37:58 AM

New Zealand

sorta thinkin Wayne is sorta right!!!

10/25/2011 4:52:54 AM

Glosta

OK so far lets look at the responses:
1) Heat: I think is ruled out

2) Genetics: I totally agree genetics is a factor, and this is supported on the fact that parthenocarpy is linked to 5-13 genes, It has also been proven to be inherent.

3)Plants being in same area and getting same treatment: this i feel is linked to genetics, Chris mentioned 1561 and 1810 (250# difference) IMHO (totally opinion) the 1810 had a genetic trait for better nutrient uptake, more nutrients better growth but also took more of the items that cause low seed count. **Total theory here no factual basis and with out lab testing on specefic seeds cannot be verified.**

4) Inbreeding: for centuries plants have been pollinated by bees the closest and most likely pollen source is flowers on the same plant. if inbreeding was the issue nature could self erradicate the plants.

10/25/2011 8:04:29 AM

Glosta

I have never mentioned in this post nor is it my opinion that we should not use these items. Would I overdose my plant with GA3, auxin, cytokinins, kelp, biologicals, etc......., if it meant a 2000# seedless fruit?

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!YOU BET I WOULD!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I, like most others growers, am after the big one and will pretty much do anything that will get me there. If that means we limit the number of seeds in the word OH well. Keep doing what you are doing and I hope the big one rests in your patch next year.

10/25/2011 8:11:38 AM

Wi

I wasn't referring to heat in mid-July, but heat during pollination time as Tom states above.

10/25/2011 9:36:37 AM

Central Minnesota

I am with Tom and Chris on the heat during pollination. I always have good seed counts in my pumpkins but this year they were very low in comparison. This is also the hottest weather I have ever had during pollination. I rarely have a pollination abort, and I had that also this year. We were extremely hot in late June early July.
With that said, there has to be a genetic component also, just look at the 1810.5 seeds that were grown this year, low seed counts also.

10/25/2011 9:49:01 AM

Westford, MA

Hey Wayne!

I'll take the #1999 Kearns 2012, with LOTs of seeds!!

Want me to Save you a few??

10/25/2011 10:06:59 AM

Glosta

What would you consider excessive heat at pollination time?

10/25/2011 1:34:38 PM

Belgium Europe

Promotional/commercial reasons can cause low seedcount as well i think.

10/25/2011 2:29:39 PM

Deer Park, WI

I caution against the use of reductionist (wiki: reductionism) thought processes to explain perceived increases in seed absence/sterility.

The unfortunate reality is that complex biological processes (fertilization) are multi-factorial, both within and certainly beyond our understanding. The one absolute in biology is that the more we learn, the more we realize how little we know. Frustrating.

That aside, all of the above answers are likely contributors and that each scenario (pumpkin, patch, etc) is a system of its own who's outcome cannot be explained by a cookie-cutter template.

Heat, High [] of growth regulators, inbreeding depression, nutrient deficiency (boron? others?) all contribute, each to a varying degree which is situationally dependent. And there are likely a host of other factors that we are not even aware exist, simply because biological science has not discovered these factors.

Again, frustrating. Our penchant for reductionistic thinking is driven by our desire to control variables, preferably a single, easily controlled variable (hot summer-no seeds-must be heat-cool pumpkin next year).

In our inability to do so, however, is also what keeps the game interesting. If we had all the answers, producing whoppers would be a factory operation and what fun would that be? :)

10/25/2011 2:56:47 PM

Pataskala,OH

It is well known that inbreeding will cause harmful traits to be expressed more often, but that probably is not the sole cause.

10/25/2011 3:09:34 PM