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West Virginia

Last time I grew was in 2013. But from what I’ve seen these genetics are in all the big ones now. Don’t get me wrong I loved the harp crosses. My question is there any crosses any more that doesn’t involve the 1385.5 in its back ground? Or the 1068.2 Wallace? I’m just curious.

2/17/2026 7:42:49 PM

Western NY

There were only three pumpkins over 1000# grown last year that didn't have the 2145 McMullen in the background, so I don't think that anything survives from that era without those seeds.

The current WR is a direct descendant 12 generations out from the 1385.

2/17/2026 8:36:23 PM

West Virginia

Thank you Andy w for the confirmation. I know the genetic diversity is diminishing year by year. It was the last I grew. On another note I remember you in the general chat even back then. It’s hardly used anymore. You was even a giant to me back then.

[Last edit: 02/17/26 9:25:11 PM]

2/17/2026 9:04:20 PM

valtierra/spain

If anything made the 2145 genetics great, I think it was the genetic vigor of those two lines. We should learn a lot from these crosses that were made, both of the 2009 Wallace and the 2145, regarding genetic vigor. Now, in recent years, there's too much inbreeding. When the same genetics are combined so many times, the genetics can be refined, but genetic vigor—that is, the beasts—appears mainly with crosses of completely different, compatible genetics, which combine those special characteristics in the new cross. There are many Self strains that have the most refined line, but they almost never bring out the potential of the mother, while crosses of very different genetics often contribute that vigor. Do you agree, Andy?

2/18/2026 3:46:34 PM

Hadley Ny

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[Last edit: 02/18/26 5:19:35 PM]

2/18/2026 5:08:02 PM

Western NY

I generally agree Ruben, but I don't think that we know exactly how much inbreeding these plants can handle before it becomes a problem.

And there's a chance that it isn't even a problem. I know a lot of good growers that will not take a chance on selfed seeds - until they are already proven. I think it's a numbers game: If there are less than 200 plants worldwide each year that receive true competitive conditions and you remove most of those selfed seeds from the pool, you will see smaller results. And with our short attention span, if a seed does not get planted and do well the first year out, it is forgotten as the crowd moves on.

But here is the catch: we *need* those selfed seeds in the mix. 2145: selfed x selfed. 2009: selfed x different. 1885: selfed pollinator.

The only big pumpkin with no 2145 in the background since 2022 was the 2195.5 Kisamore. Honorable mention to the 2009.5 Segaert too I suppose. So, the 2195 is about as far removed as you can get but it shares an ancestral mother with the 2365 going back to the 1385 Jutras - at which point they diverged with the 1725 Harp vs. 1288 Wallace lines, and the 2009 was used as the pollinator for the 1057 Howell. All of that to say there are about 7 or 8 generations of separation between the sides in the 2012.5 Bok cross. That's probably as far apart as you will be able to realistically get. Most seeds have a lot in common if you only look back 3 or 4 generations in the tree.

2/19/2026 2:50:47 PM

Grittyville, WA

I grew a 1415 Haist 2015 awhile back as an "alternative lineage". It was a very vigorous plant especially for a selfed pumpkin, but other than overall vigor I'm not sure what exact genes it might possess. Unless there was a specific gene that got sidelined at some point, it's hard to imagine how an older lineage could make an improvement to the current lineages.

I wonder what role random small mutations (rather than hereditary variation) might be adding to the diversity and to the ongoing breeding.

Ps good post ^ Andy.

2/19/2026 3:22:42 PM

Grittyville, WA

If someone is serious about alternative genetics I can check my collection and probably share any extra seeds such as the 1415 Haist.

But looking even farther back, even these "alternative lineages" again mostly arise from the same pumpkins.

2/19/2026 3:34:19 PM

Sainte-Catherine-de-Hatley, Quebec, Canada

All those pumpkins were great back in 2010-2020 what I belive was the last of the 2145 was the 2610 crossed with the 2145 in 2024 then it was 9 years old now all that remains are their descendants most of the lines that are currently “in” are descendants of the 1385.5,2009,2145 etc.

2/19/2026 9:46:57 PM

Sainte-Catherine-de-Hatley, Quebec, Canada

The 2365 wolf is extremely high in McMullen.

2/19/2026 9:48:07 PM

That State Up North

I wonder if we are loosing something in some of the lines that fall out of favor. I grew the 129 Kaczenski(734Cilibertox2145) in a field plot that also included the 2365. The 129 plants were noticeably taller of stalk and healthier late in the season. As far as final size the 129 fruit were also just slightly larger than the 2365. Maybe we aren't loosing any key traits, but over the years I feel like I have seen something different in plant characteristics from stocks with 734 Ciliberto, or Gancarz genetics. I wonder what the actual population size we are selecting from each year, 200? 1000? or far less. I know a few decades ago when I was growing and selecting from a few hundred plants a year I felt I was selecting from a similar sized gene pool as the entire competitive patch grown fruit across the world. I think there is a much greater population size being selected against today with ever improving genetics. The size, ability to handle rapid growth, even great color, better shape and tremendous % heavy all coming from a collective selection effort in a pretty large population size. Even if the backbone of these genetics is from very few original parents.

2/28/2026 6:21:43 PM