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Ohio

I see alot of AG pumpkin x Squash cross's done in the AGGC but no one ever seems to grow these seeds.

Does anyone know of a AG pumpkin x Squash cross that has been grown that it ended up growing green, or did it grow orange?,, Anyone ever grow one of these type cross's?. There sure has been alot of these type cross's made but know one ends up growing them , why is that?

Brooks

12/1/2009 4:35:40 AM

Brooklyn Corner, Nova Scotia

I'm not stalking you Brooks, honest lol. Ben Hebb grew many squash x pumpkin and reverse. His WR 990 has five progeny listed on AGGC and three of the five are squash. His 1056* is a beautiful true green squash grown from a 836 Neily and the pollinator was the 1068 Wallace. Old stereotypes would be my guess why crosses like this don't get attention. Only a few years ago "selfing" was a curse word around here.

12/1/2009 6:21:48 AM

President - GPC

BrookZ......I crossed my 848 McKenZine with my 1016 Daletas...

.....I grew it last year sorta......Put in a bad spot and not taken care of the plant produced a very bright orange pumpkin with a 6" stem....I want to try it again but this time take care of it.....The pumpkin started out green when lil then at bowling ball size went super orange......

Anyone who wants to try this seed is welcome to it.....quite a interesting cross....plant was nice and it threw many BB's, worth planting again...

email TheWiZard@ColoradoPumpkins.com if interested.....

12/1/2009 9:08:04 AM

President - GPC

SOrry.... 848* MacKenZie

12/1/2009 9:08:36 AM

Ohio

Andy, thanks for that info, I didnt know that about Ben's 990.
Wonder how many other cross's like that was grown that ended up growing green.

Here's one also Andy thats kinda neat,, the 611 Hester* (*900 Lyons x *737 Stellpflug) has thrown all orange type colored pumpkins, no greenies.

And then a couple years or so ago Brett grew his 895* Hester and it grew a orange pumpkin for him, first one he has ever seen grown on that seed. Not sure what that pumpkin ended up weighing though, it isn't listed in the aggc. I think it would be kinda neat to grow that orange *895 progeny seed to see what color you would end up getting off it.

12/1/2009 11:06:57 AM

Pocatello (cliffwarren@yahoo.com)

Long ago on another list there was a discussion about color genes in these giants. It is thought that the green gene is recessive. Call it "b". There is a white/pink/salmon gene that is dominant, call it "B", and another red/orange gene that is also dominant, call it "R".

This would seem to fit, as a fruit could express both the B and R at the same time, giving it muted orange color. It could also be RR, which is the bright red-orange that everyone loves. Of course, we see BB fruit as well.

Theoretically, if you cross a bb greenie with a fruit that is RR you'd get Rb, which would be red-orange in the end.

If you can get a fruit that has green skin at first, then turns orange, that would be very interesting. The green skin should probably be left in the sun which would help it grow.

12/1/2009 12:19:50 PM

Leerdam, The Netherlands

Look at the 1310.5 pitura (salmon)

1310.5 =1012.5* pitura x 1055.5* Pitura
1012.5* = 1055.5* pitura x 1231.3 pukos

Great potential.

I grew it to 921lbs and crossed it with the 895* Hester
It was bright orange
A fellow grower from belgium also grew the 1310.5 Pitura and grew a great squash of 947lbs

I wil grow mine 921 next year. Or it will throw even brighter orange or on even nizer squashz

12/1/2009 2:08:24 PM

Picton,ON (j.vincent@xplornet.ca)

Brooks

Squash x Pumpkin is done a fair bit but seldom grown. The green gene is recessive, so unless there are green genes in the pumpkin used in the cross, the offspring will almost always come out orange. I have heard it takes at least three generations after "contamination" with orange genes to get the true green squash back again. This is one of the main challenges for us squashers to move these things forward. Many growers grow one plant only and often, self the fruit, limiting the chance for hybrid vigor. The key to advancing the squash weights will be in careful out crossing. Pumpkin genetics may be used, but a long term commitment is required.

12/1/2009 4:52:27 PM

Colorado

I grew the 990 hebb and got a true green squash

12/1/2009 5:47:35 PM

Germany

assume that colour is a trait determined by one gene and green is the recessive allel( gene)so if you cross a true green one with a pumkin : bb X RR results in F1 generation with the combination bR, and orange colour. Selfing /Sibbing this seeds results in : bR x bR => 25 % bb (green), 50 % bR (orange but mixed genes) and 25 % RR (orange).
My 905 Preis 08 is a selfed offspring of an pumkin/squash cross. From 5 started seeds this year two brought greenies.

12/1/2009 5:53:52 PM

Eastern Washington State

Brooks what is it you want to do?

To recap what people have said, progeny from orange X green should almost always be all orange. On rare occasions you'll get half green (like the blue eyed kid in a brown eyed family).


If you want to grow squash with pumpkin genes, you have basically three options. Let's say you are starting with
with squash X pumpkin hybrid seed. It'll take two years to get a squash with some luck.

Strategy 1: Grow out one squash X pumpkin hybrid plant. Self it. Next year plant out this seed. 25% will be squash, 25% will be true breeding pumpkins, and the remaining 50% will be pumpkins with squash genes hiding in the woodwork.

Strategy 2: Grow out two squash X pumpkin hybrids. Cross them. Next year plant this seed out. Breakdowns are the same as in strategy 1 without having to self.

Strategy 3: Grow out squash X pumpkin hybrid along with a squash. Cross them. Next year plant out this seed. Half will be squash, remainder will be pumpkins with squash genes hiding in there.

hope this helps. Brian

12/1/2009 7:36:43 PM

Eastern Washington State

Or you could just grow out my galeux d eysines X 711 Bosworth cross. Really fun plant and vigorous to grow. It survived some 2,4-D overspray and went on to produce two very solid squat pinkish pumpkins with lots of cantelouping and a few of the characteristic warts from the galeux d eysines parent.

12/1/2009 7:48:17 PM

Anamosa, IA BPIowegian@aol.com

I have seen a couple of squash that Carlson & Petersen have grown, and they have tremendously long stems. It really eliminates most chance of stem stress, a trait that would sure be great to get into a pumpkin. If you could get that length to go along with the girth of the stems on Don Young's pumpkins, you would the best of both.

12/1/2009 10:40:08 PM

Brittnau , Switzerland

The color from Squash is only 1 reason .
How about the long Stem from a 848 McKenzie or other Squashes crossed in a Pumpkin with short stem ?
Or Wallthickness ?
Or Shape ?
Is this also recessiv if crossed in a Pumpkin ?
For me i have the idee , to plant a 1248 Ford , wich grows a extremly short Stem and cross it with a 848 McKenze ( or my own Squash 423 Rüegger (848 McKenzie* x 1234 Wursten*) that grows extremly long Stems ,I hope this Cross grows out long Stems and holds the heavyness from 1248 Offsprings . Good Idee ?

12/2/2009 4:30:55 AM

Leerdam, The Netherlands

Sounds good Roger, but remember what John said maybe you will need three generations to go green again. Plan your crosses and stick to the plan About that long stem....
mine had a short stem and went orange as I said the one Leo grew was squash and had a long stem...

12/2/2009 6:35:02 AM

Ohio

Brian,
lets say I take a 611 Hester (900 Lyons* x 737Stellpflug*) (which all the pumpkins grown off the 611 has grown orange) and cross it with,,,lets say a 895* Hester for example,,, the 895*grows true green squash,, so the chances of that seed out of the 611 Hester x 895* pumpkin cross should grow green then or better chance to grow green? even though all the pumpkins that have been grown off the 611 Hester (Mother seed) has grown Oranshish colored pumpkins?

So what Im trying to say is your chances will be greater crossing the 611 Hester into a squash because the 611 Hester already has that squash gene in its back ground right?

I hope this comes out right for you to understand what Im trying to say,,lol But Im starting to understand this now I think, thanks to this post.

12/2/2009 7:12:09 PM

Ohio

Brian,
I grew a 'galeux d eysines x 1220 Raunig 07' this year and the couple pumpkins I did grow off that seed sounds exactly as you described yours to be ,only mine went over 100 lbs or so( I couldn't pick it up by myself and put it in my trailer is how big it is,,lol) and as a matter of fact, that one is still sitting in my patch as we speak , still solid as ever,,lol,, I need to get the seeds out of it soon though.

Brooks

12/2/2009 7:25:46 PM

Somerset,Ky

We crossed the 1234* X 1450 Wallace hope on finishing
that project in 2010.

12/2/2009 8:28:22 PM

Eastern Washington State

Brooks,

So you say the 611 Hester had one squash parent but throws all pumpkins. So crossing one of those pumpkins back to a squash would be strategy #3 in my previous post. (The 611 would be the squashXpumpkin hybrid.) So you would expect half the resulting progeny from this cross to be squash. This is twice the frequency of crossing a 611 Hester with itself, as sib, or something similar. Then you would only expect 25%.

I wonder what those galeux d eysines crosses were on the chart... Mine had some heft to them, like the female parent. They were fun to grow.

12/2/2009 9:09:52 PM

Adams County

My 393 Pettit squash. ( 824 brunst x 500 lanngevin 1450 x 1068 ) three plants first year green , green , light yellow. all the yellow pumpkins aborted except the one . the greenie is on the SOGPG weigh off board ( 435 lbs ) the greenies grew well and had to be culled . but the yellow ones died out by day 15 .. except for the one light yellow one. dont know if this helps , but there it is.

12/2/2009 9:20:17 PM

Ohio

Brian, the 611 Hester has two Squash parents, the 900 Lyons* x 737 Stellpflug*),, The thing about the 900 lyons seed is that if grown your chances are 50/50 on getting a greenie from it, and if you do get a greenie from that 900* the progeny will grow green most every time.

I learned this from Lipumpkin, this guy knows his squash, ain't that right Glenn!?,,lol. Every time Glenn tries to grow a 900* seed to get his greenie hes after, his 900* pumpkins always end up growing orange for him,,lol!!

12/3/2009 8:06:45 AM

Eastern Washington State

Huh, I think we're missing something here. Assuming that green/orange coloration is a single gene trait, with orange dominant to green, then any two green individuals should only produce green offspring almost always. Kinda like if a guy and his wife are both type O blood but the kid is type A, a paternity test might be in order to clear things up lol.

Anyway back to the 611 Hester throwing all orange thing. given our assumptions, then one of those parental plants had to have been orange. Maybe the actual pollinator plant grown off the 737 Stellpflug was orange, and that's how the orange trait got in? Or something else is going on? This wouldn't be the first time that a 'simple' genetic trait got screwed up by yet another gene. Which is another reason the guy with the type A blood kid ought to wait on that paternity test before filing for divorce. Luckily for me both my kids look like me and I don't have a brother lol.

12/3/2009 4:02:24 PM

Long Island,New York

The father of the 595Stellpflug was a Loraine Orr seed that was a pumpkin.The 595Stellpflug was the father of the 737Stelpflug that was the father of the 611 Squash.....so theres pumpkin in the mix. Personally this seed and the 986 squash from bretts patchhave done enough non-normal things to convince me there was either a pollination screw up or a seed label screw up and I dont think these guys should be used as a lesson in genetics at all.

["The thing about the 900 lyons seed is that if grown your chances are 50/50 on getting a greenie from it, and if you do get a greenie from that 900* the progeny will grow green most every time."]......I don't think I said this because I dont think its true, at least not with the 900Lyons or 895Hester.

I've tried to stay out of this discussion because I really don't think anyone knows much about color heredity...I think theres some stuff tied to color genetics that influences what you get more than some punnet square dominant/recessive excersize but I dont know enough to debate it....

12/3/2009 4:56:02 PM

Eastern Washington State

Whoah now everything's gotten clear as mud. I reckon another beer or two and that moment of perfect clarity will come. Books I'll make every effort to tie one on this weekend and report back!

12/3/2009 10:12:48 PM