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Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

Is anyone here working on creating a stablized seed line? If so, what seed(s) are you using? Why did you choose the seed(s) you did?
I'm planning on selfing both the 940 Mombert 00 and the 603.5 Muller 03 seeds. I may decide to create a stablized line, using one or both of these, depending on the progeny they produce for me. I'm not sure yet. I like the color and shape these seeds can produce.
How many selfed generations do you think are needed to have a stablized line?

5/17/2006 7:04:32 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Nu-B here that does not understand what a "stabilized seed line" is??? Can you, or someone define the term??? Thanks, for all the help!!! Peace, Wayne

5/17/2006 9:52:28 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

My take on it, is that it is a result of selfing a particular seed for a number of generations(maybe 5?). The result is a seed that produces consistant results in terms of pumpkin characteristics, such as color, shape, wall thickness, etc.(environmental considerations may affect these somewhat, even with a stablized line).
Crossing two stablized lines could(I stress COULD) result in hybrid vigor. I'm only speculating here, as I'm not trained in genetics.
Ex. 845 Bobier (selfed for five generations) X 801.5 Stelts (selfed for 5 generations). Could be interesting.
I think there are a number of selfed seeds out there that are good candidates for working with to create a stablized line, such as the 1008.4 Reiss, 603.5 Muller, and 969(?) Ailts.

5/17/2006 11:36:14 PM

I think you have it pretty close Doug from what I have figured out to this point. Joe Ailts has some ideas in 2 articles here in the "How To" section. some additional articles on his website:
http://jozepumpkins.homestead.com/articles.html
gives some food for thought.
A few of us are growing the 969 this year hoping that it retains the shape and color that fruit displayed. We all know what the 603 can do,,these 2 lines retained and then crossed will be a good test of the theory.
845 Nesbitt X 845 Bobier can anyone say Big and Orange, heavey to the charts,,hmmm possibly. I for one plan on finding out !
Hope our plants thrive this year Doug,,we can swap some seeds this winter.

5/18/2006 6:33:33 AM

I was told that the 801 tend to go lite to the charts, when the public access was open on AGGC I did research and found that to be true. Something to consider,,the flip side of that is they almost always throw orange when they are the pollinator,,,interesting stuff this punkin genetics

5/18/2006 7:03:52 AM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

Dan,
The reason I like the 1008.4 Reiss(801.5 Stelts X self), is because it was over 9% heavy to the charts, and had very nice shape and color.
I saw the 969 in person, and it was impressive. I was surprised to hear it came from the 845 Bobier seed. Very nice shape, and nice color (for an 845).
Best wishes to you!

5/18/2006 11:29:37 AM

Netherlands

Something I keep on reading over and over is that some people assume that if you cross two pumpkins the good characteristics will be combined. The odds are just as great that the bad characteristics will be combined.

Example:

A fruit that is light to the charts but a nice colour is crossed with an ugly pumpkin that is heavy to the charts (I'd rather have a 1200 10% light than a 800 10% heavy by the way) can produce a nice coloured heavy pumpkin, which is what we aim for. It could also produce an ugly light pumpkin.

5/18/2006 12:01:55 PM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

Good point Brad. But if you have a stabilized line, that produces good traits(such as thick walled, nice color and shape) and cross it with another stabilized line, that produces nice traits, I'd think the good traits would be much more likely to be passed on.
If you take the 603.5 Muller as an example, it is a first generation selfed seed. All the fruits I've seen from it so far, have had great color(nice shape as well). It appears to me, it is a more consistant color producer, than than famed 801.5 Stelts. It appears that when Mr. Muller selfed the 845 Nesbitt, the genes for great color were passed on to the progeny. Can the same be done for shape and wall thickness?
The 601 Rahe 03 is a selfed 901 Hebb seed. From the few offspring of the 601 Rahe, that I've seen, it looks like great shape is being passed on to its progeny.

5/18/2006 12:32:53 PM

Menomonie, WI (mail@gr8pumpkin.net)

Still a crap shoot....

5/18/2006 2:39:45 PM

Utah

well here's my try at it ...

503 Tanner 2005 (891 Tanner x self), +2%, Light in color (almost no orange), Ugly shape. Smallest fruit in the patch last year.
http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=44250

891 Tanner 2004 (735 Pukos x self), -2%, Medium to Dark Orange, OK Shape.
http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=29259

735 Pukos 2001 (846 Calai x self), -1%, Medium Orange, Average to ugly shape.

846 Calai 1999 (801 Stelts x 876 Lloyd), -9%, Dark Orange, Nice shape.

Didn't want to try a 503... didn't think it would give me what I am looking for... Thought about growing another 891 this year but decided not to.

5/18/2006 3:44:49 PM

Utah

wasn't getting the results I had hoped for ... don't think the line was stable yet... don't know how long it would take to do so.

5/18/2006 3:46:19 PM

Hudsonville, Michigan (michiganpumpkins@sbcglobal.net)

For anyone with access, check out the "Program" option on the AGGC. It allows you to organize your data in order to reach a specified breeding goal. Good stuff.

Frank

5/18/2006 9:39:29 PM

Eastern Pennsylvania

The problem is, some traits are a combination of multiple alleles, and who knows how many generations are required to generate predictable offspring. The cards just fell into place for the 603 I think, from what I've observed I don't think we'll see any non-orange 603 offspring... but then there will be more this year than ever before, that's for sure. I have going a 603.5, a 317 which is a selfed 603, and a backup 669.5 Muller, another selfed 603.5. IMO if you want to take a chance at a big, heavy orange fruit, cross one of these seeds into the 1095 Wallace- a selfed 1367.5 Rose. I should've done it this year oh well. Jim

5/18/2006 11:22:06 PM

Follansbee, Wv

As Jim said my 1095 is a selfed 1367.5. I am growing the 1095 this year and will self it again. If the results are what I am looking for (shape and weight) I will grow two of the seeds. One I will cross with the 1367.5 and the other I will self again. The 1095 isn't much for color, but I couldn't complain about the shape and weight.

5/24/2006 7:59:49 AM

Choctaw, OK

I have a 546 seed that is 3 generations selfed 846 calai....who knows what it will throw.

My 1042 seed is 882 armstrong x 425 wolf

882 is 735 Pukos x self (735 is 846 x self)
425 is 658 Wolf x 801 stelts

658 Wolf is 846 Calai x self

If you ask me...that looks super inbred....the 1042 was a tad over charts and the 425 produced my 1186 that was 7 lbs under charts......i have a 1042 going in the patch and its the best plant......wonder what the fruit will look look like....still with all that inbreeding...there will be high varibility in the offspring...it would take a while to make a stable strain

5/30/2006 12:23:04 PM

Deer Park WA

Hummm, Case I would love one of those 546 to cross with my 611.4* next year, which counting it's past liniage and my line breeding should be like a F-6 or F-7 inbred. Ok basically a 900.4 Lyons selfed/sibbed with a self/sibb or two before that... Sorry for the vauge facts folks, but I let my AGGC expire a couple years ago and dont remember anymore....

5/31/2006 1:00:03 AM

Little-TON - Colorado

Here's probably a stupid question.....but I got to ask it. Say for instance one uses more than one male flower from muliple AG's Reiss, Kline, Langevin, an experiment? Ever been done??. Making sure all are giants and pure. Yes I know one wouldnt know how much, and it would be like a open pollination but it would be pure AG's not squash or whatever. Just wondering........Worth a try or would this be considered bogus seed?

6/1/2006 9:06:29 AM

Minnesota(dw447@fastmail.fm)

Da Wiz,
If the cross was controlled, you'd have seeds that produce AG's; but the resulting offspring would be somewhat unpredictable, based on pollination from multiple males.
The seeds may appeal to those with a sense of adventure.
I'd guess that seed requests would be lower than a cross from a single male plant.

6/1/2006 10:37:25 AM

Eastern Pennsylvania

Wiz, check this thread http://www.bigpumpkins.com/msgboard/ViewThread.asp?b=19&p=145604

6/1/2006 3:24:12 PM

Little-TON - Colorado

Wow, what a thread......guess it wasnt a stupid question but pandora's box......Im gonna hit some of my botany books up as this is cool stuff.....Thanks for your help.

6/1/2006 4:24:22 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

Da Wiz, when you are finished with the books...let me know if it is true that each grain of pollen produces one seed??...if so then the seeds produced in your experiment would be a 1 in 3 shot...(Reiss, Kline, Langevine)? Is this correct? Peace, Wayne

6/1/2006 10:38:06 PM

Eastern Pennsylvania

Wayne, yes. Assuming you get equal amounts of pollen granules into the female flower. I know Biology but not so much specific to pumpkins... yet. There are other variables but for the sake of this discussion... I would want to know what I'm planting. I don't want to play KENO with my seeds :~D
Jim

6/1/2006 11:06:14 PM

Owensboro, Ky.

The point being that the multiple varieties of male pollen, will not combine into each single seed. Would be neat if it worked that way!!! Oh well. Peace, Wayne

6/2/2006 8:28:16 AM

Little-TON - Colorado

I chatted with the Horticulturist across the way from me....she's an Iris Judge for the botanical gardens. She specializes in hybridizing and said that yes multiple males will produce multiple combinations; single flowers will produce multiple combinations. She said if she pollinated an Iris with a single male, and then planted every seed from that pollination, every flower would be different. Similar but uniqueness to everyone. Throw in multiple males, make more combinations. Wild ehh? She said it’s like a litter of kittens. One daddy black, one mom tabby, 6 kittens, three tabby’s two of them golden one grey, a calico, one white and one a patch. No Dogs. Still would be cool to experiment with the dye in the lobes........I need more patch. Grow em Big.

6/2/2006 8:31:47 AM