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North Of The Border

If you look back 4 generations in any one of the top ten pumpkins (pumpkinfanatic makes this easy), you will see the 2145 McMullen. If you look back 4 generations on any other giant, take watermelon for example, only 5 of the top ten share a common parentage of the 302 Kent. In tomatoes, only 3 container the same parentage (where information is available) of the 5.71 Lambchop.

Do genetics matter for fruit other than pumpkins?

12/27/2020 3:36:41 PM

Upper Strasburg, PA

One of the causes of genetic bottle necks in Atlantic Giants is the size of the plants. We could talk more about that.

12/27/2020 6:17:15 PM

Bethlehem CT

A very good question. It seems that the study of AG genetics does not get nearly as much notice or "PR" in the present as it did in the past. Several years ago growers would buy a membership with the Atlantic Giant Genetics cooperative and spend the winter perusing plant genetics. Genetics played a heavy part in a growers seed choices. I am sure the best growers still do extensive research before choosing what seed to plant, but seeing as how most of the genetics are pretty darn similar. I would argue they are choosing their seeds differently than they did ten years ago.

12/27/2020 6:40:54 PM

Pittsburgh, PA

Top growers not only look at genetics but also look at other things when determining what to grow. Plant health and vigor I believe on high on their list of things to look in to. Just look back to see what the top growers are growing each year. They seem to have a knack for picking seeds that goes well beyond genetics. Seeds that others ignore are often grown by some of the best growers in the world.

12/27/2020 9:40:09 PM

Syracuse, NY

No HH here but track record is mostly what i care about and
how many were orange/how many were over 2k/who grew them.
and then....i get my hands on them. poof! eg

12/27/2020 10:47:25 PM

Syracuse, NY

I believe that once a top grower has his soil dialed in, ANY seed he plants will certainly indicate that a 'champion' seed was planted and then 100 others grow it too and so on. That is how 10 different seeds are grown by one grower and they're ALL 1.5K to 2K+. soil health is #1, of course, seeds' genetics #2, weather #3 and the grower is the orchestrator of any and all things that can be remedied. it's like a 'soil symphony'. and, yes, genetics will matter in all directions for any biological organism. eg

12/28/2020 5:33:26 AM

If genetics did not matter, how would we have gotten to the current weights. Other stuff has helped but maybe when the other vegetables start being controlled like an AG, the weights might shoot up. Big gourds are starting to do the same and who knows how big they will get.

12/28/2020 6:51:15 AM

On a cliff in the desert

One thing that has to happen is to get a more diverse genetic pool. Everyone should start growing seeds that do not have 2145 genetics in them. I know we want to grow big but by concentrating on one genetic line we may be inadvertently inbreeding undesirable plant genetics into the genetic pool. Other genetic lines may be lost due to age from seeds not being grown.

12/28/2020 3:09:57 PM

Deer Park, WI

Genetics absolutely matter for fruit/crops other than pumpkins, notably agricultural crops of socioeconomic importance. Let's stop to first define what I believe OP meant by "Do genetics matter" I am interpreting the question as: "are there significant differences in seed potential if a defined collection of seeds share a common ancestry?" My direct answer and likely contentious answer is No, "genetics" do not matter to a pumpkin grower aiming to select for maximum size from a pool of seeds with common ancestry. My answer would change to an affirmative "yes", however, if we had a structure in place to evaluate seed banks for various characteristics relevant to the hobby. In the corn/soy world, every hybrid/variety (read: seed) in the catalog goes through very extensive testing and subsequent ratings for various characteristics/diseases that matter to farmers. Naturally, high yield (a farmer's equivalent of top weight in the giant pumpkin world) is the goal everyone strives for. But yield, just like top weight, isn't an exclusive genetic trait. Its the outcome of innumerable genetic and environmental factors that coalesce to create a final outcome. Farmers and their agronomic advisors will select for various characteristics of seeds depending on their own preferences and farm history...matching environment to hybrid/variety. There's no such thing as a perfect seed, whether its a pumpkin or a corn plant. They all have unique advantages and disadvantages, all of which are influenced by the environment they are grown in (climate, soil fertility, local weather, disease history, cultural practices). These advantages and disadvantages are well known for corn and soy.

12/28/2020 3:37:10 PM

Deer Park, WI

Not so much giant pumpkins. If one's goal is maximum weight, beyond the logical process of planting the largest progeny from the largest progeny,(search "cross-weight average" for my historical work on this area of interest), there's literally zero relative basis upon which seeds can be evaluated for their performance potential. Folks may not appreciate this debbie-downer perspective on the sacred giant pumpkin genetics topic...but absent rigorous replicated testing in various environments, our group of extreme hobbyists simply do not have a "seed catalog" with variety characteristic ratings to turn to. Until there is significant commercial interest in the output of our hobby, there likely never will be a structured process for breeding, evaluating, and rating various seed lines for performance potential. As such, the "genetic" difference between an 1800lb 2145 McM progeny grown on the east coast vs 1900lb 2145 McM progeny grown on the west coast is absolutely unknown on a relative basis. We can back-test progeny from these hypothetical crosses and try to make educated guesses about which is "genetically superior", but even still, there are so many unknowns and biases inherent in a backtest study that any data is immediately suspect. The only "knowns" we have as it relates to giant pumpkin genetics are female seed weight, pollinator seed weight, and fruit weight. As such, the only useful information I feel can be applied to the seed selection process (when max weight is the goal) are these factors. Now, before someone hits me with the but...but...but the 220 Debacco!!!, I recognize that small fruit weight can carry top genetic potential. However, we knew that fruit was grown indoors over winter. Removing any contextual evidence from the process, those three weight values remain the only concrete info we have on genetics. Happy to debate this for those interested. :)

12/28/2020 3:37:15 PM

North Of The Border

I agree with most of what you are saying, and I believe this is partially true. The cross weight average is not completely fool proof. Sure it works often, but every once in a while it won't work. If I have a 727 pounder, grown from a 2012 by a 1625, it will have a 1454 cross weight average. Then it can grow a 2008 pounder. This is actually true with the 2008 Cutrupi, from 2020, which is 554 pounds above its cross weight average.

Even the 1875 Mendi from this 2017 has a 2055 cross weight average, and has grown one 538 pounds bigger than this. The 2145 McMullen has a 1842 pound cross weight average, and has grown 34 pumpkins over this with the 2624.6 being 782.6 pounds over.

This implies it takes more than a good cross weight average to produce good pumpkins. I prefer a method I have designed where I take the seed, and it's parents, and figure the percentage of their children that have grown over 2000. Ex) 2145 has grown 8% of its pumpkins over 2000. It's parents have grown 3 and 0% respectively. This tells me it is 11% of a chance to get to 2000.

The 2150 Skinner has only 0%, with its parent at 28%. This gives it a rating of 56%. I then check how many times it has been grown, 2 and 28, or a total of 58, and then multiply the percent with this number. This gives 3016. That is it's max potential in my mind. The 2145 is 2950. This tells me they are about equal, not 600 pound potential apart.

12/28/2020 4:55:02 PM

North Of The Border

However the main question originally was do genetics in any other giant matter as much as in pumpkins.

12/28/2020 4:56:10 PM

Brandon,WI.

Well Joe, being a hobby pumpkin grower and a Crop farmer, i wud have to agree 100% with ur genetically based answer. :) If we all had the R&D tools that the great crop industry had, we ALL wud be growing HUGE pumpkins.

12/28/2020 6:03:41 PM

Lloydminster/AB

Yes. But, we haven’t used it as well. For instance watermelon genetics are not as widely known and many have been open pollinated. The gene pool is mixed with a lot of different fruits.
Pumpkins we grow now are all pretty much offspring of a couple of pumpkins. Find something not related to the 935 Lloyd for instance.

12/28/2020 10:31:13 PM

Colorado

Of course they matter.Every giant vegetable type has a different history and techniques.But you need competitive seeds to compete.

12/29/2020 2:34:37 PM

Johnston, Iowa

PumpkinGrower216 - another spin on your question may be "other than pumpkins, are genetics less important than grower skill"? I feel like maters are an example where that is true.

12/29/2020 8:04:37 PM

North Of The Border

I understand that genetics mater some, because your no going to get a 5 pound mater with a cherry tomato seed, but in the range of giant varieties, big Zac, Domingo, etc, does it really matter? Will a 5.71 Lambchop outperform the 9.44 Sutherland? Does the parentage matter? Or is it just variety?

In longgourds, nobody even knows what seed grew the biggest one, so does that not mean that with bushel gourds, they are fine with any seeds? It was obviously not an impressive seed, or they would have kept track of its parents, so maybe it was just a store bought seed? I don't actually know, I was just wondering.

12/30/2020 7:55:40 AM

Central NY

For me, genetics are important in the tomato game only because we are talking about different “strains” of tomato...big zac vs Domingo for most of the big fruit...great answers above

12/30/2020 7:59:31 AM

Central NY

Lol...good morning...all the big Domingo come from the 2.48 Lovelace grown from seeds given by Vincent Domingo... I have noticed from the big ones, some have light seed count, some have high seed count..for us, the higher seed count maters perform better the following year... I think that’s genetics?...oh god..I’m in over my head...I would say 5.71=9.44..if it had a high seed count.. never doubt science

12/30/2020 8:06:26 AM

Shingle Springs, CA

Perhaps it helps to look at it this way. 100% of the potential of a seed is defined by its genetics (a unique genome which was determined when one specific egg merged with one specific sperm). How much of that potential that is actually realized will depend 100% on the sum of all the environmental experiences of the pumpkin (from the point of its seed germination to the final point when it gets officially weighed). Put a world class genetic seed in the hands of a beginner and the environmental factors are going to probably dominate the final weight. Put a world class seed in the hands of a world class grower and the final weight will likely be about equally determined by genetics and environment.

1/4/2021 8:40:41 PM