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Upa Creek, Mo

So is the trend now to keep anything past the pumpkin growing? I read Dave's post below and he eventually terminated the main past the pkn, but will grow a secondary all season?

I have the secondary growing 20 feet past my pumpkin on 1 plant, then can I take the last tertiary and grow it back the 20 feet the other way on to the lawn? Is that how this works with the hormone theory?

I'm stuck in 2011 and haven't been in a club in a while and don't have anyone to consult with local anymore. I get all my info from here.

Thanks


http://www.bigpumpkins.com/Diary/DiaryViewOne.asp?eid=293243

7/9/2018 3:37:46 PM

Syracuse, NY

there used to be talk of 15 feet as the maximum length for a secondary - whether or not with or without a pumpkin, i dunno, but you should search home page/maximum secondary length and home page/past the pumpkin until the pros arrive. i'm a CON, lol--eg

7/9/2018 4:29:05 PM

Deer Park, WI

I have long advocated for allowing the main vine to continue growing throughout the life of the pumpkin. The tip of the main (called the apical meristem in nerd-speak) is a hormone factory that pumps out chemical messages delivered to the rest of the plant that say "I'm still in growth mode, keep the groceries coming"

given that most of the "groceries" are sourced at the opposite end of the apical meristem (distant roots & leaves), it means by default they need to flow past the pumpkin stem to get to the meristem.

The pumpkin is also sending the "feed me" signal to the rest of the plant, you essentially get dual representation of the hunger signal for the pumpkin.

7/9/2018 4:38:05 PM

Deer Park, WI

Notice how most of the secondaries after the pumpkin set are not nearly as robust in their growth as secondaries prior to the set. This is a wonderful demonstration of pumpkin sink strength. Even so, the apical meristem is still producing the signalling molecules that reinforce growth. Severing the main, in my opinion, removes this hormone factory that cannot be replaced by a secondary or tertiary vine tip.

Until someone can provide a strong argument that supersedes this theory, I have no reason to believe there is advantage to main vine tip removal. Further, anecdotal evidence that a plant with a severed main produced xyz pumpkin is of no value to me, as there is no way to test if pumpkin xyz could have grown larger had the main not been severed.

Lastly, look anywhere else in the plant world where pruning is used as a vegetative control strategy and you'll find that clipping apical meristems promotes branching. I personally do not want to promote branching in giant pumpkins (encouraging secondary & tertiary growth). Additionally, I'm not aware of any scientific research that suggests apical pruning enhances fruit growth. Actually, quite the contrary, as vegetative pruning in many fruit/veggie species facilitates fruit maturation (think tomato plant haircuts to speed up ripening).

The physiological process of ripening involves plant hormones that actually inhibit growth: abscissic acid and ethylene. These two work against growth-promoting hormones like auxin and cytokinin. (auxin is the growth promoter made in the apical meristem).

Long winded answer to reinforce that my story has remained the same. Hope it helps.

7/9/2018 4:38:10 PM

Westmoreland, KS

I'm with ya Luke I get all of my info here. I read up though out the winter studying old diaries and stalking peoples facebook posts and youtube channels for info. In high school I was the jock and now I'm the creeper in the corner of the gym!

Personally I think there is small advantage to letting it grow however from what I've seen a healthy plant seems to send the right signals to the fruit. I have no proof but it doesn't seem to matter where the growth comes from if the plant is healthy the fruit will grow and at the end of the season (especially where we live) you have to have a few vines growing to have healthy leaves.

I say let a few vines grow and keep that plant healthy the pumpkin will follow!

7/9/2018 5:14:07 PM

New York

Most people agree that the main vine should stay. I have another question that will add onto this would it be better to cut all the secondary’s off of the main after the pumpkin so that the secondary’s behind the pumpkin get bigger and turn the secondary right behind the pumpkin into a “main vine” so that all the plants growth is still behind the pumpkin except one long main?

7/9/2018 5:26:48 PM

New York

This will keep the original main vine but still keep all the plant behind the pumpkin which then you will prune all the vines except the original main. This will cause the plant to fill in faster because it’s behind the pumpkin. . ( this is more of a explanation of what I said above

7/9/2018 5:29:27 PM

Syracuse, NY

i am NOT directing this at anyone in particular: there is one main vine. all the rest are secondaries. UNLESS the main vine is CUT from the rest of the plant, it is still the main vine. all the rest are secondaries. i would not recommend intentionally cutting off (all) the secondaries past the fruit or its vine because, (what) if a disease or old age destroys all or most of your leaves and vines BEFORE the pumpkin, whether on a secondary or the main vine? - then, you'd have HALF or less of an opportunity to continue-on to season's end with an intact plant and fruit.

7/10/2018 8:00:18 AM

Syracuse, NY

JOZE---if you are here, isn't the policy of years ago to
1. allow all secondaries (that ARE allowed, per pruning tactics such as 'every-other-vine') to grow until they reach 15-17 feet (or else they begin living for themselves and not contributing back to the plant as a whole) and
2. allow the MAIN vine to grow indefinitely (as you said, just reiterating), and 3. to not allow any tertiary growth unless it is to fill-in any space available due to vine loss/poor growth from others that should have grown-into that space?
and 4. A new thought for me: should a vine that HAS a fruit on it be allowed to continue to grow or follow the 15-17-foot (rule?) if not to that length yet?

a lot to throw out there, but i read every word of yours above and a light shone down as i did so, because it was a flash to the past for me, lol-----eg
PS---i always try to contribute back to the plant as a whole, too, so, here's a
(vine) tip, lol: you can allow a secondary to be dead-ended just past the last leaf on it, i mean, the curve of the vine will match the curve of the leaf stalk base as if there never were any vine growing though there, and by allowing the last TERTIARY that would have been able to grow out just before this vine's end to grow, you can do what i call 'Right-Angle Growing', and essentially keep that vine going still as a secondary, but by using a TERTIARY to do so, at 90 degrees from the secondary. this could come in handy when a vine is getting close to its boundary and you still want to maximize open soil coverage/run it along a fence, etc.; i don't care if this is common knowledge to most - we all learn something new every day!

7/10/2018 8:01:07 AM

Upa Creek, Mo

Jose, thank you for taking the time to explain that. It makes sense, and that is what I was looking for.

Jake and pknpal, I definitely let new growth fill in where old leaves get damaged from sun, age, disease, occasional vine borer that gets through on a leaf stalk etc. Basically what I've done is trained the last secondary as the new main. The pkn is about 22 feet out total, and the secondary it is growing on is as thicker or thicker than the OG main. with tertiaries acting as secondaries. I am going to let the new main keep going for now to try the sink theory. Abomb, I won't grow that many secondaries after the pumpkin. That's too much growth not going to the pumpkin and I will just let the 1 new main go requesting the groceries as mentioned in the sink theory above.

7/10/2018 8:44:06 AM

Westmoreland, KS

I'm having a hell of a time right now with all of these hot days and from the looks of it at least 3 more weeks in the 100s. Finding a happy medium between enough water to keep the plants cool but not too much to cause disease seems impossible.

This year I'm letting 4 secondaries and the main vine continue to grow to fill in leaves that I've cut out.

Also I've tested a bit and covered some leaf nodes with soil and didn't cover some...almost every leaf node that I didn't cover the leaf is perfect the ones that I've covered are causing me issues. Next year I won't be covering any leaf nodes...I think it is just too hot for us to be using that method.

7/10/2018 11:07:31 AM

Syracuse, NY

well, we'll just hafta work on some other product to bury leaf nodes with, now, won't we? although a bummer for you, i will also be on the lookout for the same phenomena---i feel that Mycorrhiza will help protect anything that grows into it, and on a hunch, you can look at Ryan Hoelke's diary from i believe last year and see his unreal vine-rooting using Pro-Mix with Myco in it. i think i'll try it if affordable.
just an idea, as they all start out as---eg

7/10/2018 11:46:51 AM

Westmoreland, KS

Pumpkinpal that is very true pro-mix might be a viable solution. I use peatmoss/soil mix maybe just straight peat moss or pro-mix and no soil would be the best for us hot temp growers.

7/10/2018 12:32:03 PM

Syracuse, NY

gotta love a hot temp!

7/11/2018 12:17:36 AM

Wisconsin

Joze "Additionally, I'm not aware of any scientific research that suggests apical pruning enhances fruit growth."

While not scientific, I believe this has proven to the be the best practice of Giant Tomato growers. Why is that?

7/11/2018 5:55:18 AM

Eastern Pennsylvania

Are tomato growers terminating their plants after the fruit?

7/11/2018 9:37:33 AM

Wisconsin

It seems a common practice among melon growers also.

7/11/2018 1:15:14 PM

Bloomington, IN USA

Yes, it is practically Gospel to terminate a tomato plant right above the chosen fruit.
Now, if you are not sure that a better blossom couldn’t come along , you keep growing the plant & you may have 2 or 3 fruits that you are watching to see which one is growing the fastest.
I probably agonize too hard & too long over this prior to making the decision.
It’s much easier to have a good 5X blossom take, lop off the top & then nurture the remaining plant to maximize fruit growth.

7/12/2018 10:37:07 PM

Bloomington, IN USA

I am not advocating doing this for AGs, as Joze notes there are good hormonal reasons to keep the apical tip growing.

7/12/2018 10:40:27 PM