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Indiana

Im thinking about building a watering tower. How high do I need to make it? I already have a two foot rise right behind the garden would that be high enough?? or is the pressure higher the taller the tower?
Steve

12/2/2003 2:40:25 PM

Utah

The higher the tower the higher the pressure.
also the system length affects the pressure. the longer the system(hose) the lower the pressure at the very end.

12/2/2003 3:03:58 PM

Pumpkintown, SC

...and so does the width of the pipe you use, smaller tubing equals more pressure
If you plan on working some misters off a gravity fed system, start building that tower now! The higher the better. BF

12/2/2003 3:17:51 PM

Oz

i watered 8 hills using 5/8 hose and had the water "tanks"
4 ft above the ground.
it worked ok,but i think i should have went higher.
every foot you increase you get .43 psi more.
if you put a pump inline after the "tower",you can increase
your pressure alot(depending on the pump).

12/2/2003 3:18:16 PM

Indiana

If I loop the other end of the drip hose and connect it back to the barrel will i still have low pressure at the point farthest from the barrel?? Im hoping that just the two foot rise would work. Will the pressure always get higher the taller the tower or does it equal out at a certain height?? Hmmm?
Steve

12/2/2003 3:25:30 PM

Eugene, OR

To figure the static pressure you'll have at the end of the hose, you use the equation delta P = (gamma)(h) where delta P is the change in pressure, gamma is the specific weight of the water at a given temperature, and h is the measured elevation change from the surface of the water to the outlet. Be sure to bookkeep your units so you end up with psi, MPa, etc. and not some bastardized set of units.

A good rule of thumb for most cases is that a 27.7 in change in elevation willl yield 1 psi pressure change. So, if the elevation difference from the surface of the water in your tower to the outlet is 10 feet, you'll have about 4.33 psi of static pressure.

Of course, the length of the hose/pipe in question and the construction of the pipe itself effects your actual pressure. For new PVC pipe, the relative roughness is fairly small so your head losses will be minimal over a short distance. The longer the run of pipe, the more significant the friction losses in pipe become.

The diameter of the pipe being used will have no effect on the static pressure but greatly effects the velocity of the flow. The smaller the pipe, the higher the velocity but the lower the volume. There's a fine line between flow rate and pressure when dealing with gravity fed systems and what you use really depends on the demand you expect in the system.

</engineering psycho babble> :-)

12/2/2003 4:12:58 PM

Long Island,New York

Ok Mr. Hydraulic Engineer...please answer question #2....
1.) If a train leaves the station at 2:30 and proceeds west at 45 mph and another train leaves the same station at 3:00 and proceeds west at 48 MPH what time do they crash?
2.)If i hook up 5 soaker hoses on a manifold and send the 50' soaker hoses 25 feet out and back 25 feet and they are (1/2 Home Depot soaker hoses)and the manifold is hooked up to two 50 gal barrels, at what elevation should I set the barrels in rder for the soakers to work?
3.) What other info do I need to supply to get you to answer #2?
4.) If Im in a spaceship travelling at the speed of light and turn the headlights on do they shine ahead of the spaceship?
5.) Why, biologically speaking, do men have nipples?

12/2/2003 4:50:00 PM

Utah

Steve-

yes even if you loop it around - you will have a lower pressure at the farthest point. but that lower pressure might be fine... it just depends on how much water is being used between the tower and the end. if you had a hose with 10 small holes the pressure at the farhest point would be higher versus a hose with 30 small holes or a hose with 10 big holes.
the higher the pressure the more even the flow.
if you had a hose with 10 holes ... but the first hole was twice as big as the hose ... then all the water would run out that hole ... and never make it to the other holes. but if you had 10 small holes and a really big diameter hose then the difference between the closest hole and the 10th hole would be very small.

i think you'll just have to experiment with it.... but as has been stated generally the higher the better.

no it never levels out... the deepest point in the ocean has the highest pressure. it is the weight of the water above... it pushes down... just as if it was bags of cement or anything else. the higher the stack the greater the weight - the weight in water translates to pressure.

I used a soaker hose /tower system when i lived in Seattle. I just knew that i was going to get less water out of the hose the farther away i got. it worked well for me. I had 2 - 55 gal barrels for each plant. one just above the other connected. the lower barrel was about 3 ft off the ground.

12/2/2003 5:13:01 PM

Eugene, OR

LOL, is this a test?? I'm not very good at tests. LOL Give me a minute and I'll type up my responses.....

12/2/2003 5:26:16 PM

Eugene, OR

1) 10:30. The distance between the two trains at 3:00 is 22.5 miles. In order for train 2 to make up the distance, it must travel for (22.5 miles)/(3 mph) or 7.5 hours. 7.5 hours from train 2's depature time is 10:30. This of course assumes that both trains are on the same track and negelcts the length of the trains.

2) LOL, trick question. Is there water in the barrels?? Also, if you route the end of the soaker hose back up to the barrel at the same elevation....the ENTIRE soaker hose will NEVER work because the pressure at the end of the hose will be the same as the pressure at the inlet. Some portion of it may work depending on the elevation change but the entire 50 feet of hose won't work.

3) All sorts of variables....what fluid is in the barrel, what pressure is required to make the soaker hose "soak", friction losses, where in the barrel the manifold is connected, how it's connected, etc. etc. etc. Of course as previously stated....do you want the entire length to work or only a portion?? As is, only a portion has a possibility of working.

4) Yes! This is just a basic SR problem. Special Relativity states that one cannot look outside the home frame (the spaceship) and know you are traveling at the speed of light or greater. To look outside the ship and not see your headlights would violate SR. The speed of light is INDEPENDENT of all frames.

5) Why?? Cause they're cool! LOL I've read that it's because we're mammals. Besides being warm blooded, mammals have 2 distinct features....hair and nipples. Of course there are exceptions to every rule. Male horses don't have nipples and I'm sure there are others. I guess it's in our DNA so we get um.....

12/2/2003 5:37:55 PM

Kenyon, Mn.

geez, this is going to be a looooong winter

12/2/2003 5:46:57 PM

Long Island,New York

OK...2.) Not a trick question...soaker hoses not hooked up together or at the ends...just 50 foot of hose with a plug on the end going in a loop. % hoses hooked up to a manifold.would psi in hose be 1/5th as much when 5 are hooked up as when 1 is hooked up?
2.A) Would 10-25 footers be better than 5-50 footers?
3.) Water in barrels with some seaweed soluables,assume bottom of barrel hookup..just a plain soaker hose !
4.)so then if I put the back headlights on would it light anything up?
5.) Because its in our DNA just doesnt cut it...I never could understand "blind faith " either...I barely allow "because I said so" or "Im the Mommy-thats why...."

12/2/2003 6:11:39 PM

[email protected]

Wow. This is a talented crowd huh?

5.) Because at inception, all humans are female. Then the male hormone testosterone kicks in & changes us. Too much & you turn into a Gorilla. Too little & you end up living on LI like Glen.

12/2/2003 6:14:12 PM

Eugene, OR

LIpumpkin...what's the point? I responded to the original question by moondog and you're now turning this into Quiz Brian day. I'll play along, but only if it's meant to be friendly. If it's not friendly I'll say this.....It's easy to chastise someone when you have the solutions.

To answer your question....
"would psi in hose be 1/5th as much when 5 are hooked up as when 1 is hooked up"

No. Pressure will be the same in all 5 lines...and the same as if there were only 1 hooked up. The only thing that would change when hooking up 5 hoses when compared to 1 would be the volumetric flow rate in each line.

For number 2, I thought about the volume of 5 50' hoses. The volume of each hose is (pi)(r^2)(h). The volume of each 50 foot length of hose is (3.14159)(.25^2 in^2)(600in)= 117.8 cubic inches. So, the 5 hoses use 589.05 cubic inches of water to fill them up....or about 2.55 gallons so that can't be the trick.

I'm not a soaker hose manufacturer so I don't know what pressure is required to make them "soak." What pressure is required to make them work? It could also depend on how much water is left at the end of the line....if any. If you have one large hole in the beginning of the line, all the water will flow out at that point and never come out anywhere else.

12/2/2003 6:58:21 PM

Eugene, OR

"Would 10-25 footers be better than 5-50 footers?"

If I understand your description, then yes. There will be a lot more friction losses in the 50 foot hose when compared to the 25 foot hose.

"so then if I put the back headlights on would it light anything up?"

I don't know what kind of car you're driving, but I don't have headlights on the back of mine. LOL If there were such a vehicle with lights in the back, you would most certainly see them as well.

For number 5....I am not a genetics expert or anything like that so I won't even bother trying to explain it more than that. I don't take anything on blind faith...and personally it doesn't make a bit of difference to me whether or not you take "because it's in our DNA" as an answer or not. Let's not make this a contest please!! I want to stay on good terms with everyone on this site as they've already helped me a lot with respect to my pumpkin growing and want to keep it friendly with everyone!

12/2/2003 6:58:34 PM

Western NY

ok, i would love to play along, but i don't have time right now. here's what i have used, though: i set a 55-gal about 3 feet off the ground, on a stand i made. this gravity feeds into a t-tape drip irrigation system for one of my plants. since the holes are pretty tight, it takes about 4 or 5 hours to empty the drum. so, i usually let it empty out overnight for a slow, constant moisture. this is in addition to the normal deep waternig i give them.

Andy

12/2/2003 7:06:18 PM

Menomonie, WI ([email protected])

Its all in Fun Brian...You just have to understand G. Wait a minute does anyone understand G?

12/2/2003 7:20:08 PM

[email protected]

His nipples do....

12/2/2003 7:24:19 PM

Long Island,New York

Typical engineer. My Father's an engineer. My Grandfather was an engineer. My two brothers are engineers and I work as an engineer (but Im a pumpkinologist). Questions #1,4,and 5 were lighthearted humor attempts...thats why I asked that you answer #2 in my first post...because it keeps the thread on topic and is a more direct question along the lines the original poster was asking.There is no trick to question #2...just looking for real answers...not static pressure gamma mumbo-jumbo.I dont know, I may be way off base, but I thought it funny you were telling a guy named "Moondog" about Mpa's. Its winter...the guys lookin to work out what works in the way of barrels and hoses,gravity flow. Anyone have some practical answers? Anyone have a sense of humor anymore? I think Im gonna leave this site forever and never come back...and you cant make me come back...Im leaving NOW...Im almost gone....or else....ok guys?

12/2/2003 7:46:05 PM

Mastic Beach, New York

here something for fun..spell racecar backwards and try and figure what it spells....yes i'am bored..lol

12/2/2003 7:47:49 PM

Eugene, OR

LOL, it may be the "typical engineer" in me but when I give an equation to figure pressure, it's kinda important to say what units they work for. If someone uses that equation and plugs in 12 feet for the elevation instead of inches, they certainly won't get psi out without doing a conversion......that's why I said to watch the units.

In answering the question, I tried to give the equations instead of just spitting answers out so they know how to figure it out for themselves. The rest of the questions you asked are legit questions that actually have answers so I answered the best I can.

I enjoy brainteasers and have fun with um. I'm a very laid back guy most of the time and I was really only trying to help and play along.

12/2/2003 8:01:55 PM

Garden State Pumpkins

Leapin Italian Wall Lizards...say it ain't so G...

12/2/2003 9:05:37 PM

North Ga

G, My big man breasts would look kinda funny without nipples!!! LMAO!!!

12/2/2003 9:09:46 PM

Long Island,New York

I think they look funny with nipples Brian....lol

12/2/2003 9:23:45 PM

Indiana

Boy its cold outside my nipples are hard!! Thanks for all the ideas. The mathmatical equations are above my head but I think im gona try setting the barrels on a platform on some cement blocks run a pvc pipe from the bottom of the barrel to a pvc manifold at soil level, the soaker hoses will be level that way. Some hoses will loop and one will run a straight line across the patch. I two barrels a plant enough or should i get three??
Steve

12/2/2003 10:13:21 PM

northern indiana

It seems to me that there is one overlooked question here in Moondogs original delima.. one very basic question..Just how much water is he looking to put down per/ day? or Hour? how large is the tank? that will also have an effect. well i guess that is 2 questions but whose counting?
spring is long my nocturnal canine friend. experiment when the weather breaks! see what works for your set up! these eingineers will have your head spinning with quadriatic equations that would baffel all but einstien if you let them!
just my 2 cents
hapdad

12/2/2003 10:28:11 PM

Deer Park WA

moondog,

I feel the best lesson learned in elevated platform construction systems is that of center of gravity, build it to hold the shear load distributed evenly to the vertical radius supports. Really is the purpose of the watering tower to act as a resivor to hold water due to limited supply capacity, or to help moderate the waters temperature, or both?

12/3/2003 2:59:04 AM

Eugene, OR

I love being mocked. Pardon me for trying to help the guy.....

12/3/2003 10:00:10 AM

Utah

Yes gads good point... i've seen more than one tower sucome to moment arm cause by the center of gravity of the tower system not being alined properly in the vertical direction and of course the enevitable happens the gravitation forces acting on it cause a rotation of the system in the direction member under which settling has occurred. One must remember that the cause of this is not usually the structure itself but the foundation or lack thereof. This problem is easily remedied the way to do this is to establish a proper level foundation, since failure generally always occurs not in the structure but in the organice medium on which it is place. level is the key. I've found by personal experince that cinder blocks work well. another solution is to establish guild wires to restrict movement in all direction. 3 is sufficant if properly placed but since most tower structures are retangular in nature, a simple but somewhat more costly solution using 4 wire works equally as well.

as for you question i think typically the answer is both.

12/3/2003 10:01:09 AM

Utah

we are not mocking you... just having a little fun... it's the off season and people do strange things.... you just have to understand most people have no idea what the heck you are talking about. ... see moondogs last post.... typically going techincal doesn't help if the person asking the question was techincally minded then he wouldn't have to ask the question... he would be able to figure it out on his own... the other half of the equation is the theory becomes useless quickly when you can't find the # that you need. this is what glenn was trying to point out by bring in soaker hoses... they work great but there is no data on them as far as flow etc...yes you can do some general calulations which may or may not give a ball park solution but trial and error tends to work best... and the best solution is experience- someone elses experience.
see andy's post... something that works.

12/3/2003 10:14:02 AM

Eugene, OR

I see what you're saying. Let me give it another try...

If you raise the barrel 2 feet, you get about 1 psi of pressure. As others have said, the higher the barrel the highe the pressure. I don't know what kind of coverage you're trying to get, but to figure out how many barrels you need just go by the drip rate. If you plan on using 20 2 gal/hr drip nozzles, you'll be using about 40 gallons in an hour.

Most drip parts are rated at 25 psi, but to get that pressure you'd need to raise the barrels up pretty high. The lower the tower, the less water out of the drip system.

When I set up a similar system for my Big Max's, I used an 80 gallon trash can raised up about 5 feet. I drilled a hole in the bottom, connected the drip line with a valve, and sealed the inside of the can with silicone to be sure it wouldn't leak. I just poked small holes in the drip line wherever I needed water and it worked pretty well. Just turn it on when you want to water and let it do the work for you.

12/3/2003 11:02:48 AM

Utah

great post Brian !!!

12/3/2003 2:43:16 PM

Walkerton Ont

I have 50 gallon barrels for my watering system, have the 50 gallon barrels only off the ground 8 inches and they have no problem draining

12/3/2003 4:05:15 PM

Indiana

Big one
What kind of drip hose are you using??
Steve

12/3/2003 4:16:00 PM

South Hill, Virginia

I think it would be easier to just pray for rain.

12/3/2003 4:22:54 PM

Walkerton Ont

i have garden hose attacht to tap and going directly to roots of plant, have a o tile that the water can go through
and drain.

12/3/2003 4:44:52 PM

northern indiana

Sorry if you felt I was mocking you Brian.. I wasn't. I have to ditto what gt1 said.. I didn't mean to offend you. great retry! that even makes sense to me.
Hapdad

12/3/2003 7:33:15 PM

Eugene, OR

No problem guys. I guess posts on the net don't really allow the person reading it to know how the words were meant to be taken without actually hearing the tone of voice, etc.

I know I sometimes overdo things when it comes to math stuff....so the next time I do smack me!! Is the winter always like this??? :-)

On a related note, how much water do you all normally give your AG's per day?

12/3/2003 7:58:45 PM

Garden State Pumpkins

Great post Brian...believe me these guys are just funning with ya...we are for the most part looking for whats gonna get the water to our plants...I for one appreciate any posts here that want to help out the new guys....Even the one g1t sent me about cation exchange!!! LoL had to get that one in Gordon...I still reread that from time to time...nope will never get it!

12/3/2003 8:14:58 PM

[email protected]

Brian, Please. Keep it technical. Those formulas are teriffic to know & I personally appreciated your sharing them. Valuable stuff when trying to figure these things out. Next time I need these formulas, I can look here instead of pouring over my dusty commercial irrigation manuals.

Remember, there are thousands of hits here every day. A couple people got confused & cried. (No offense intended! LOL) So an awful lot of folks have silently enjoyed the angle you took & said nothing just because they were satisfied with the explaination you provided.

Thanks

Steve

12/3/2003 8:49:48 PM

Utah

Is the winter always like this??? :-)

A: sometimes its a lot worse !

how much water do you all normally give your AG's per day?

A: you want 1 to 1 1/2 inches of water per week over your entire patch. (varies greatly depending on soil type, weather, etc...) I'll let you do the math ... LOL! (if you need a hint let us know)

12/3/2003 10:47:52 PM

[email protected]

27,000 gallons to make a 1 inch thick (before freezing)skating rink on 1 acre of patch here in CT again tonight.

12/3/2003 11:27:40 PM

Eugene, OR

LOL Tremor....I like how you added in the "before freezing" part. You're pretty sharp

If you ever need an equation for pretty much anything, send me an email. I'm full of it, oops I mean them.

g1t, Thanks for the info on the water requirements. I'll keep that in mind when setting up my drip system.

Happy Holidays all!

12/4/2003 12:00:17 AM

Tipp City, Ohio

So, if the barrells are only eight inches off the ground, then can one assume that it is not the water pressure that is needed but the water to be warmed up from the surrounding temperature?

12/4/2003 9:15:33 PM

Tipp City, Ohio

Steve, your only going to get .99 inches of rain with 27,000 gallons. But if it freezes then the water will expand and be more than one inch. Actually, if I did my math right, the water would be 27,272 gallons for one inch on the acre.

12/4/2003 9:24:22 PM

Eugene, OR

Steve's actually pretty close Bantam...

(43560 ft^2)*(1 in)*(1ft/12in)*(7.48 gal/1 ft^3)= 27,152 gal of water to put exactly 1 inch of water on one acre.

Water expands about 9-10% when frozen. After freezing, the water would occupy approximately 3993 cubic feet, or about 29868 gallons. Water is some crazy stuff!

12/4/2003 9:55:20 PM

Indiana

So how do you convert that to 1000SQ feet? would you just use (1000 ft^2) with the rest the same?
Steve

12/4/2003 10:03:17 PM

Eugene, OR

If I understand what you're asking....then yes. If you want to figure out how many gallons it would take to apply 1 inch of water to 1000 sq ft then you would just replace the 43560 ft^2 with 1000 ft^2.

Works out to be a little more than 623 gallons. Hope that's what you wanted!

12/4/2003 10:51:49 PM

Indiana

Thats what i wanted.
Thanks
Steve

12/5/2003 8:37:49 AM

Tipp City, Ohio

Just did my calculations from memory when I was in Ag classes in the early 80's. For some reason I used 7.51 gal/ft^3, I must be getting old. Steve just rounded, and that is fine.

Brian, You give 7.48 gal/ft^3. Do you know what is is out to 4 places?

Tom

12/5/2003 10:44:28 AM

southern MN

7.4805195 U.S. gallons/ft^3

12/5/2003 11:16:19 AM

Indiana

Doesnt that vary with the temp?
Steve

12/5/2003 11:24:38 AM

[email protected]

oOOOOOHHHHHHMMMMYYYYYGGGGGOOOODDDDDD.
It is going to be a long winter.

I think it's time for us to start some germination experiments or something.

Steve ;o)

12/5/2003 11:48:28 AM

southern MN

Moondog- Some one could correct me, but I think no. The 7.48.... number is a constant. So 7.4805195 gallons of a liquid at 38 degrees is 1 cubic foot of that same liquid at 38 degrees. However if you have 7.4805195 gallons of a liquid at 38 degrees and want to know how many cubic feet of the same liquid at 74 degrees then you are dealing with density and such along with this equation.

12/5/2003 1:14:38 PM

Long Island,New York

Steve...whats your elevation?...lol

12/5/2003 1:42:24 PM

Eugene, OR

Wow, getting heavy into the thermo now eh. The density of water varies with temperature and pressure. Water is normally considered incompressible under normal conditions so the pressure variation due to elevation changes is neglected when considering volume changes, however water is compressible to a certain extent under extreme pressures.

Temperature changes affect the density, which in turn effects the volume it occupies. At 150 Deg F, water's specific weight is 61.2 lb/ft^3 and at 50 deg F it's 62.4 lb/ft^3. Water at higher temps is less dense when compared to water at lower temperatures. The molecules have spread out enough to effect the density as well as the volume it occupies.

I won't go into why water boils at a lower temp at higher elevations....unless you really want to prolong our suffering.

Germination experiments here I come!!

12/5/2003 2:12:25 PM

Indiana

sorry about that last post on the temp when i used to be an aircraft mechanic the amount of fuel you put on the aircraft varied with the temp. Just wondered if it was the same with water. Ok another question: would I have better flow or pressure with 4 barrels and one manifold with 8 drip hoses or two sets of two barrels and two manifolds with 4 hoses each??
Steve

12/5/2003 2:41:10 PM

Eugene, OR

Steve, you're absolutely right! A certain weight of water will occupy a larger volume at higher temps than it will at lower temps. The same goes for the AV gas, although the rate of expansion will obviously be different.

To answer your question, the pressure and flow rates should be the same for both situations as long as the barrels are at the same height, the drip lines are the same diameter, and the manifolds are basically the same.

But...for the 2 barrel setup you described, it would be better to stack one on top of the other and then connect the two to the manifold. You'll have higher pressure than you would by simply placing the barrels next to eachother. The difference in pressure won't be a lot, but it will be a bit higher.

12/5/2003 3:00:28 PM

Montoursville, PA

To round this discussion of I eyeballed Joe Puko's barrel tower and the available timbers at Lowe's. The three inch square landscape timbers were cheap....like me. Four of them made a tower a tad less than eight feet tall. Two fifty gallon barrels feeding to a T and then to the 1000 foot patch into T-Tape from Dripworks in Calif enabled me to dump without wash away from the the tapes one hundred and ten gallons in one hour and fifteen minutes. With this summers heavy rain in the Northeast I used them sparingly.

It takes a half a day of sunshine hitting the black barrels to bring 45 degree well water up to ambient. Any differences between the soil and the warmed water is taken care of in the flow. Checked this with therometer in soil by exit holes in the T-Tape. Five degrees difference was the greatest difference I could find.

I delevered the water by gravity to a 1000 sq. ft. patch through T-Tape placed every eighteen inches and five inches deep. This proved to be quite workable and easy doable as the tapes can be hoed into the patch instead of burried deeper. The tapes removed easily for fall rebuilding of the patch. I managed to take them out only damaging one tape.
The header and all the rest of the tapes are ready to go back in for up to five years of service. I only burried the tapes. The header was on top cover with or shaded by leaf cover.

By way of improvement I shall add two valves in the header creating a service area while leaving the unused patch dryer as the plant develops.

I checked the delivered degree of dampness by diging a hole and checking untill I learned how the system was working. During the one dry week or so we had the system satisfied the patch on an every other day use basis. The surface, of the patch, stayed dry when the weather in general stayed dry. This year that was an unusual condition. We had to much water many days.

12/5/2003 3:34:13 PM

[email protected]

Brian, Would you agree that the only really accurate way to measure fluid is by weight? I know no one ever wants to hear this. But I believe it is true. Volume only matters when too little space exists for storage.

12/5/2003 6:10:24 PM

Eugene, OR

Yes I agree, but I guess it depends on what you're trying to accomplish with each type of measurement. If you're trying to measure the exact amount of a fluid you have at any temperature and pressure then weight is the way to go but if you simply want a convenient way of measuring the amount of a fluid you have under what we would consider "normal" conditions then by volume is close enough for government work.

For normal everyday type stuff I'd say by volume is close enough. When it gets down to the nitty gritty though, by weight is really the only exact way of measuring what you actually have, which is probably why weight is used for aviation.

Doc, that's a great setup. I've been thinking about setting up some sort of under ground watering system but I'm not really sure about what depth to put them at, how much water to deliver to the plant at different places, etc. I'm worried about root rot and don't really know how much water to apply directly to the root system.

Also, does the temperature of the water really make that much of a difference in plant growth? Anyone out there tried both cold and warm water and noticed any differences?

12/5/2003 6:42:29 PM

Long Island,New York

volume also matters when you're paying for it.

12/5/2003 7:21:29 PM

Eugene, OR

LOL, that's true.

12/5/2003 7:33:17 PM