From

Location

Message

Date Posted

Hudsonville, Michigan ([email protected])

I see Actinovate is going for $90 for 18 oz. Is it really worth it? It appears to be good stuff from the literature. Just wondering who's used it and whether you've seen noticeable results?
Frank

11/7/2003 6:11:45 AM

Ontario, Canada.

Never used it. I would also like some info on the effective use on inoculants? One of claims is below and a few links.

It is common for most growers using Actinovate® Soluble reduce their loss due to disease to 1% or less. Production is increased, costs are reduced and money is put right where it ought to be... the grower's pocket.

http://www.dirtdoctor.com/view_question.php?id=193&set_theme=1
http://www.actinoiron.com/plusm.html
http://www.tcs-hydroponics.com/doc/actinovateinfo.htm

11/7/2003 7:55:24 AM

Commack, NY

I used it this year, and last. By the end of the season in both cases plenty of my vines rotted anyway, and this year i had no stump left it had rotted so bad. It may help in the beginning, to suppress some of the nasties. Perhaps it needs to be reapplied to really reap the benefits
Scott

11/7/2003 8:18:15 AM

[email protected]

I've been in soil science/pro agronomics for the better part of 25 years (brief stint in computer repair along the way. Mostly Pro-Turf & Ornamental with some action in agriculture in Southern Mass. & No. CT.

I have strong feeling about the use of Mycorrhizae (Myc here after). Myc clolonizes organic soils where higher plants have rooted for the mutual benefit of the higher plant & the Myc. Anyone who would like to *see* Myc need only look at the loose organic duff beneath a healthy Pine tree. Brush around the leaf litter a bit. See the white stuff? Smell it. Smell like mushrooms? Good. That's the stuff. Pines are a great place to see Myc because this Myc is large & contrasts the duff.

If it weren't there, the tree would be dead. So if the tree is older than 6 months, it's there. Now if the tree were youger than 6 months, & the soil was for some bizarre reason, completely devoid of organic matter & Myc innoculum, you'd probably want to add some. In which case it would either succesfully colonize or die.

If it died from let's say drought, so would the tree. If chemicals destroyed the Myc, so to the tree would die.

If the Myc & the tree are successful & both establish, then all is good. So if you ever want to plant a pine tree, grab some leaf litter & duff from bebeath another more well established plant & sprinkle it around the upper backfill soil of the new tree. Doing so is the same as buying prepared innoculum only you won't have to rehydrate it & wait for it to bloom. Not innoculating doesn't spell imminenet death for the new tree. But it may hasten the establishment period as Mother nature will get it done for you in about 99.9 cases out of 100.

continued

11/7/2003 8:47:20 AM

[email protected]

Now let's say we're all sitting in a sealed chamber. We're only going to live until the oxygen in the air is all used up. In this case, the oxygen is akin the myc. If we need more oxygen than we have we can release it from a bottle assuming there is no window to open. Our bodies need about 16-20% oxygen in the air we beath. More isn't better. In fact, too much more is lethal.

In the interest of time, I'm going to cut to the bottom line now.

If we grow plants (any kind of higher order plant) outdoors in soils that contain organic matter, we can liken this to sitting in rooms with open windows.

If we grow in a dead soil (room with no windows) we probably should apply some myc one time to create the colonization (bottled oxygen). But in the case of Myc, once it's growing, there is no need to apply more. It is it's own self producing being. Unless a sever condition presents itself in a manner that is fatal to the myc (closed window too long). But now the host plant is dead too.

More Myc (more oxygen in chamber) will not benefit the plant. Though unlike oxygen surplus, it won't hurt the plant either. It is chemically inert. So the feds are leaving the producers alone.

continued

11/7/2003 8:52:28 AM

[email protected]

The promotion of anual myc applications only benefits the outfit that is selling the Myc. Take a look at who the players are in this arena. See any big time players? Syngenta? Monsanto? Bayer? Dupont? Dow? I didn't think so.

I can collect leaf litter & dry it up really good. Then I can run it through a food processor. Then I can put it in a bag or a box. I can label it any way I want to because there are no labling laws for me to adhere to. I can sell it to you all day long. You won't kill anything except your paycheck. So you can't sue me. There are still no laws against stupidity. The stuff can't fail because it would be very hard for even a poor grower to kill the myc & chance are it was already there anyway. And if you notice an improvement in plant quality, it's probably because of something else in the dust I sold you that would have been too costly for me to remove like iron or some organic nitrogen that was fixed in the organic matter.

For those who want to try it once, I'd say go ahead. But even if you note an improvement, I would refrain from applying it again. Once Myc is going it's going. How many windows does a room really need?

Now beneficial bacteria are another matter. So is growing in odd ball soils or hydroponics. But I've got to run for now & that's not what this post was about anyway. LOL

Steve

11/7/2003 8:53:48 AM

[email protected]

I might also add that Myc will colonize the areas where roots are. And that Myc is host specific. So Pine tree Myc will do nothing in the pumpkin patch. I'll see if i can locate the names of the myc that most beneift cucurbita later when I get home.

If someone else already knows, please post it.

Steve

11/7/2003 9:01:36 AM

Indiana

If you use basamid to sterilize the soil should you use somthing like Myc to get it going again or will just adding some compost reintroduce it to the soil??

Steve

11/7/2003 9:14:27 AM

[email protected]

Yes. But I wouldn't stop there. Basamid also kills beneficial soil bacteria. We sell a product called ProMax which is identical to BioGain (because it's made for us by Becker Underwood to ISO standards). Either of these would do. There are others as well but these are the only 2 that voluntarily adhere to ISO standards that I am aware of.

Basamid treated soils are known to demonstrate an early spring Nitrogen dificiency due to the lack of bacterial activity. Even when soils are re-innoculated, some added nitrate form of N is a good idea. Urea based materials won't cut it.

New organic materials should always be added to a Basamid treatment candidate 'BEFORE' the treatment. Adding organic material after treatment would negate some of the benefit. Weed seeds, insects, & disease causal pathogens are frequently moved about this way.

11/7/2003 10:02:05 AM

[email protected]

Hey Frank,

I'm sorry. It just dawned on me that I ruined your survey thread. I'm sort of anxious about a medical treatment I'm getting later today & took it out on you post, LOL.

Please forgive me.

Steve

11/7/2003 10:19:35 AM

Montoursville, PA

Joel Holland has Plant Success Super Endo Mycorrhizae on his web site. Mine came from Grow Stuff Plus before Joel began stocking it. Mine cost 36.00 for eight ounces has an indefinate shelf life in sealed container and is more than enough for six to ten years of use using the knowlege given with the product.

If your soil has been poisoned by any recent application I doubt very much if Mycorrhizae would live and thrive in it. It is my belief that it needs a host of biological support to thrive. Applying as suggested may be looked at as a booster which may be added when planting the seed in starting soil. In this case the job is done for the year. The Mycorrhizae introduction continues to service that plant throughout the entire growing period. The amount used in this case is what will stick to a toothpic to be inserted or spread about just below the seed. Another application technique is to use a salt shaker and litely dust the transplant hole. That costs you more because it uses more. Remember only one root needs to make contact with the application. There is absolutely no need to use more.

One application in a whole patch may, in time boost, the whole patch but one would have to wait until roots meet roots for the transfer and expansion.

It is true the Mycorrhizae are naturally in nearly all patches but they are effected by salts and poisons that most of us have.

By spring the use of gypsum and mother's leaching may have ballanced out the better managed patches. The interesting question is "have my natural Mycorrhizae" bounced back to adequately service my plantings". The answer to that one is you can not determine the answer or know the conditions. There is no science or theory that measures this to my knowlege. At least not for growers at our levels.

11/7/2003 10:20:18 AM

Montoursville, PA

MORE>>>Considering all the above I will continue to use Mycorrhizae which can do no harm and may do a whole bunch of good. I might note that there are no colonies of existing Mycorrhizae growing under a pumpkin vine at the time you may need it. You can not go there and and rake up some fluff and bring it to your planting hole in the patch.

It is also a Mycorrhizae that cleans up rotting matter underground. We certainly saw presence and results of this last summer with lots of rotten roots needing to be cleaned up.

The principle players are known and produced for resale in the trade. The principle good Mycorrhizae are in most if not all products being sold. You may know, if you care to, exactly what is within each product by asking.

11/7/2003 10:20:58 AM

Western NY

Ok, for the survey: i've used it. won't use it again.

here's why: for me, it wasn't worth the money. If you're going to use it and have the money to spend, do your homework and get the good stuff. mine was from Bio-Organics, from the pacific northwest. very good company, they know what they're doing. Steve is right, it's host-specific. the stuff i got was a blend of several different species to increase the chances of beneficial colonization of one or several of the species of fungi.

I used it in 2000, and had a horrible year that i can not blame on the myc. I don't the myc could have helped me overcome the other problems of that year.

Here's the important point: I didn't have any root diseases.

Here's an even more important point: I didn't have disease problems prior to adding it, anyway.

Our practices of using a rototiller any time we can get our hands on it helps destroy your myc. so does chemical fertilizers. so do fungicides.

If you are adding compost (and by that i mean good aerobic compost, not just any crap), you're already adding a bunch of myc as well as zillions of other beneficials.

I have been using one of those organic liquid thingies that you would probably lump into the "biological stimulant" category the last few years. It contains myc spores (among other things) and for me is more cost effective and logistically much easier to handle. So, in reality i'm still using it. but, would i reccomend spending almost 100 dollars on about 3 pounds of lab grade myc spores? nope.

Andy

11/7/2003 11:55:51 AM

[email protected]

I tired to find a cucmber specific Myc. Here's a link to the various research abstracts I've found so far. The one that was cucmber specific is a dead link now. Bummer.

http://mycorrhiza.ag.utk.edu/msali.htm

11/7/2003 12:08:56 PM

[email protected]

OK. I've gotta head for the Doctors now. Maybe someone else who's not being very productive today can run with this for a while. LOL

http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/64/12/5004

A lot of these abstracts are reserved for paid subscribers but don't get discouraged. There's bound to be a free reprint somewhere. Look for names like "Kubota M., McGonigle TP and Hyakumachi M."

Google is amazing.

11/7/2003 12:14:57 PM

Montoursville, PA

Steve...anything that hangs from the body like warts and moles that elongate and swing can be removed with a rubber band cholk. The size of the appendage determines the days to drop off. Acid burning sometimes causes things to back up into their roots and shrivel up to their own demise.

I'll send you a couple small dentist type bands if that would save you surgical involvement time and money. Finding the acid is on you. :)

11/7/2003 4:01:32 PM

[email protected]

Thanks Dwaine but I have an IV tube swinging from my arm. I'm sure a hammer or an acid dip would do a fine job of removing it. But I'll need it a few more days. By then the dental bands should be here right? LOL

11/7/2003 5:39:47 PM

Topsfield, Ma.

...by Steve's hypothesis, I should be popping 1400 l'ber's
What's up ? LOL
Duff

11/7/2003 8:18:40 PM