Message Board - BigPumpkins.com

Stouffville

what are the origins of the Prizewinner? I didn't know about this variety at all until I helped Steve Hoult this year harvest some of his commercial pumpkins. I was amazed by the consistent colour. What are the parents of this hybrid variety? or is it simply a variety that has been bred over a number of generations which has led to the consistency? where did it get its size from? Is there any Atlantic Giant in it? Has anybody grown self-pollinated Prizewinners over a number of generations to see if it may revert back to something else?

For instance have a look at the 1083.5 Johnson from a self-pollinated 846 Calai. Generally speaking the 846 offspring take after the 801.5 stelts colour wise, yet the 1083.5 Johnson has more of a Lloyd look to it in color and cantalouping.

Also how were the different field pumpkin varieties developed? what is their common ancestor and what is required to 'have' a new variety? Look at my hypothetical Howden situation if this could occur in the Patent/Trademark Infringement thread as a potential starting point for this discussion.

I really don't know anything about commercial pumpkin variety development, both from the legal aspect, as well as how it is achieved. I'd like to learn.

11/6/2003 1:45:39 PM

Jammer,

Check out this link. I think you'll enjoy it.

http://www.ces.uga.edu/pubcd/B1180.htm

Steve

11/6/2003 2:07:44 PM

docgipe

Montoursville, PA

Commercial hybridnizers do not post their roadways to sucess any more than Ben and Jerry would post their ice cream formula. To maintain it they create duplicate crosses so fresh new "whatever named item" is available.

If you plant the seed from any hybred you will get hybred traites from any or all traits found within the past development. If the seed you select was crossed you have then the traits of four parents, eight grandparents and sixteen great great grandparents. Believe that is thirty two parents in three generations of crosses from which the new seed may have within it. If your seed was from an open polinated five lobed fruit you in theory could have pollination from five different other fruit. Since we are not closely controlled or licenced you can rest assured some seed each year is called something that it is not. You may or may not see the likness of the pumkin from which the seed came. This is true of all hybred named varieties of all plants grown from hybred seed.

We enjoy your questions. I wonder myself where someday the answers may come from. There is no commercial profit attractive to business investors that would lead to free knowlege. If someone figured out how to consistantly produce seed that averaged 1500 pounds the steps would be closely guarded and we would pay big bucks for the seed until a second other person competitively could do as well or better at making those an attractive seed.

11/6/2003 2:34:48 PM

Hybridizing & breeding for new desirable traits is usually reserved for food crops at the commercial level. Though "sports" of ornamental plants also have commercial viability.

Todays world food issues are going to be solved in the geneticists laboratory. But this was not always the case. It used to be that good old fasioned field stomping got the job done...Plants with traits we desire would be isolated & bred & grown & new progeny that continued to display these traits would be the only ones to stay in the breeding program. After many generations, we would determin *if* the new traits were consistently displaying themselves enough to be called a new "Cultivated Variety" or "cultivar".

In our case we should first have a "desired standard" in mind. Then selective field research would indicated which "parents" are worth using. Their fruit would be planted in their entirity. A problem since a mature large C Maxima would produce up to 500 seeds & each would then be planted. Since each would require about 900 sq ft, we would need a research facility of 10 acres minus roads & storage buildings. A 25 acre site would be a little too small. A staff of about 4-6 field hands would not be unreasonable. The research team would probably consist of several MB's.

Every year they would pick only those fruit that consistently demonstrated the desired traits. All undesirable "traitors" would be discarded. All decisions & methods would be meticulously recorded for the later application for patent.

This would go on for years. Especially if hybridizing is in the mix.

All of this assumes that the initial parents weren't already PVP protected in the first place.

Somewhere in this mess I call my office I have the name of the guy who bred the Prizewinner. I forget now if he worked for Burpee or if he sold it to them. I'll look around tonight & see if I can find it. I find this stuf

11/6/2003 2:45:29 PM

Stouffville

So basically an atlantic giant is anything that has origins to one of Howards pumpkins in the 80's, And then if you cross this with a fruit originating somewhere else the offspring is still an atlantic giant or what?

that's why I've been asking about the Laemmle line since it was of paramount importance in developing the current dark red and orange 567.5 Mombert-influenced fruit of today, which often stand at the top of the leader board. I'm trying to figure out whether this strain originated in Howard's patch or came from Bob Ford to Gancarz to Richard Wright etc. I'm trying to figure out the importance of the contributions of the other giant pumpkin growing pioneers that's all. And I do understand the importance of Howard's contributions since I've grown seeds like the 827 Holland which is full of 575.5 goodness. As well as Waterman bred genetics, which had origin in the 515.4 Cully '85, going back once again to Howard Dill's fruit most likely.

does the giant green squash fall under the Atlantic Giant PVP?

Mike

11/6/2003 3:05:46 PM

Big Kahuna 26

Ontario, Canada.

Steve well done. Your link is good reading.

11/6/2003 5:50:22 PM

Stouffville

Ya I think the link was quite good too, thanks.

11/6/2003 6:00:57 PM

RJS

Southeast Wisconsin

The Prizewinner pumpkin indroduced by Burpee Seed company came from a selection of their Big Max pumpkins. Where did Big Max pumpkins originate from? There have been many strains dating back over 125 years some being called Genuine Mammoth or True Potiron, Kind of the Mammoths and Mammoth Chili. It was reported in 1885 a Mr. Chas, Hewitt of Lunenburg, Nova Scotia had a specimen of Genuine Mammoth that weighed 206.5 lbs and in 1884 a Joseph Dunn of Bryantsville, Ky. had won that weighed 226 pounds. So these round stem pumpkins have been around for quite some time. Just different selections and strains. Curcurbits will cross like crazy.

Russ

11/6/2003 6:53:45 PM

Stouffville

cool info Russ

Know anything about Warnock and his seeds?

Mike

11/6/2003 7:01:55 PM

Stouffville

check out this link:http://mrcbecancour.qc.ca/potirothon/Fichiers%20Historique/Historique%20de%20la%20citrouille%20geante.htm

11/6/2003 7:03:34 PM

Stouffville

it says that from 1973-1979 Howard Dill crossed the 'Goderich Giant' with the 'Genuine Mammoth'. The goderich giant came from the renny seed company and had its origin in warnocks fruit.

Was Bob Ford's record grown from a Goderich Giant?

11/6/2003 7:09:52 PM

I was too busy staring at my 6' tall blonde French teacher to learn the language. Google offered to translate the page. Here is the text portion.

History of giant pumpkin

The first to produce a giant pumpkin was William Warnock of Goderich in Ontario. It was presented at the world Fair of Paris a pumpkin of 400 pounds. That occurred in.... 1900! It deserved a special bronze medal and a diploma of the French government. The preceding record was 365 pounds in 1893. In 1903, it made oscillate the balance with 403 pounds with the world Fair of St-Louis. Renny Seed Company buys this pumpkin to him then sells the seeds 25¢ each one through Canada and the United States under the variety "Goderich Giant".
This n?est qu?en 1976 qu?un new record is established by Bob Ford in Pensylvanie with 451 pounds.
From 1973 to 1979, Howard Dill of News-Scotland carries out crossings of the variety "Goderich Giant" and variety "Genuine Mammoth". The latter has been cultivated by his father for thirty years who succeeds in producing pumpkins of 200 pounds. In 1980, it places the world record at 459 pounds with a seed resulting from its experiments. It’s named variety is "Dill Atlantic Giant" which is the only variety used for the giant pumpkin contests.

Good job Jammer. I saw this link last winter but lost it somehow.

Steve

11/6/2003 9:44:13 PM

I knew we were at this not too long ago. See this post Jammer.

http://www.bigpumpkins.com/MsgBoard/ViewThread.asp?b=3&p=31298

It's pretty ugly. But some of the names of the living might still be available for comment.

11/6/2003 10:21:19 PM

Hudsonville, Michigan ([email protected])

Regarding consistency, wouldn't we all like to see nice orange giants? There is such a range in colors because on the whole, we are not breeding these things for color...just weight. I personally would rather see more emphasis put on purifying an orange strain of giants...Anyone else?

11/7/2003 6:02:21 AM

Hudsonville, Michigan ([email protected])

Here's another thought on a slightly different note. What about genetic modification? Cash crops are genetically modified with great success. (i.e. putting a fish gene into a tomato to improve shelf life). I personally think it would take just one gene...something to lengthen it's growing cycle before natural dieback, to produce much larger fruit. But the cost of doing so would be prohibitive for something thta is not a major cash crop. But it would make an interesting case study. Anyone got any connections at Monsanto? :)

11/7/2003 6:08:00 AM

I know a lot of folks with Monsanto, but I think their gig would be more of a Roundup ready pumpkin. We can probably live without that. But I do know a geneticist who runs a privated commercial lab in Rhode Island. I would like to get him involved & will contact him over the winter. There might not be enough money in this to capture his interest. But he works with URI so perhaps an enthusiastic student could use something such as this for their internship. I see no other way.

Steve

11/7/2003 7:14:18 AM

docgipe

Montoursville, PA

Steve is correct up to a point....that point is future generations of kids with proper educations and scientific jobs may take this on as a personal hobby. For sure it will be a smart cookie with lots of bucks and a sincere drive to unravel our mysterys...herein stated.

11/7/2003 10:34:10 AM

Stouffville

does the 513 Fulp jr squash of 1977 (i think i have the facts correct?) play any part in our current giants?

Does anyone know anything about the hungarian mammoth squash?

11/7/2003 10:54:59 AM

Brigitte

as far as i know, they never put a fish gene in a tomato. hopefully that was just an example to prove the point. they did, however, switch around the gene that causes the production of ethylene in tomatoes.

high tech GM will probably not occur for awhile in pumpkins, in my opinion, because it is not a major cash crop like edwards said. however, like doc refered to, lots money in the right hands can do wonders.

11/7/2003 10:56:25 AM

docgipe

Montoursville, PA

Brigitte.........strange I was thinking of you when I responded. So find the knight in shining armor who has excess bucks after polishing his sword. After kids and college expense you may have the bucks to do anything you wish. Perhaps unravel a puzzle or two. So sorry I will not be here to watch and enjoy but I will keep an eye on whoever attempts this. :)

11/7/2003 1:28:20 PM

Hudsonville, Michigan ([email protected])

Discover Magazine, Aug 2003 Terminator Genes, by Karen Clark
p.49
"The first genetically engineered crop plant, the Flavr-Savr tomato, has a fish gene that extended its shelf life. But the innovation failed in the marketplace."
and on p. 50 "Now seed scientists can do better than hybridize-they can plug new genes, even those from other organisms, straight into plants."
Anyone for an 845/elephant cross? lol
Frank

11/7/2003 7:30:53 PM

Hudsonville, Michigan ([email protected])

oops, on p. 49, in quotes, it's "...had a fish gene..."
don't want to misquote anyone...

11/7/2003 7:32:29 PM

My associate the RI geneticist has spliced his own personal DNA into a new variety of Rice. Not to improve it. But so that if someone ever does try to "borrow" his genetics to improve their own marketable stock, he can prove it in a court of law. How else could his own DNA end up in some other companies Rice plants if it weren't a pirated clone of his?

Of course between the uninformed & the liberals, it's only a matter of time before CNN starts showing us all the peaceful protesters that don't want his Rice on their favorite super market shelves.

The future holds the promise of some very strange developements indeed.

And don't worry. This isn't really cannibalism. Is it?

Steve

11/7/2003 10:59:34 PM

Steveman

colorado

Right now Ag growers are trying to create a new variety that creates consistent results of 1300 plus pounders... Steve

11/7/2003 11:26:06 PM

Azkikn

Usa

I would like to see AG growers come up with a seed that would result in consistant 1300 pounders here in this heat. Good luck.

11/8/2003 12:37:12 AM

LIpumpkin

Long Island,New York

Hmm.....Fedder's gene.....

11/8/2003 3:23:25 PM

Steveman

colorado

Are there any of the "Goderich giant" seed still out there?

11/9/2003 10:35:11 PM