From

Location

Message

Date Posted

Wisconsin

Just for the fun of it, I asked most of the growers at the weighoff I went to this year (Minnesota) how they pollinated their pumpkins. I only found 1 person (out of about 20) that covered their females both before and after hand-pollination. All the rest had absolutely no way of knowing if the bees had contaminated their crosses. Many people had actually used males from different plants because there weren't enough available on one plant. Many people left them uncovered intentionally to make sure that they got pollinated one way or another.

In many ways this is understandable. At pollination time, you just want to get some pumpkins started and really aren't too concerned about generating accurate crosses for future years. On the other hand, most growers turn in data to the AGGC or label their seeds with the "suspected" parents.

I bet that a large percentage of the AGGC data is inaccurate in terms of the past genetic history of the seeds (maybe even most of it). Of course, this wouldn't effect the present and future data on a seed (what color it was, did it weigh heavy, the progeny of a seed, etc.). I have actually made the suggestion to Mike Nepereny to include a tutorial on his web site on proper pollination technique to try to improve the data.

10/22/2003 1:28:43 PM

Stouffville

If females were not covered before and after it may be best for growers to also submit information concerning the other plants grown around the plant which grew the pumpkin in question, so that if this pumpkin produces unexpected results, one may be able to figure out what the actual bee-aided cross was.

10/22/2003 1:41:15 PM

Tacoma, WA

IMHO....there are very few 1000 pounders grown by "accident"! Most of the "heavy hitters" are quite careful about their crosses. Some long-time growers are quite conservative on whose seed they will grow because of the "shoddy pollination practices" of some.

Stan

10/22/2003 2:19:23 PM

South Hill, Virginia

The information is only as good as the people turning it in. Same thing goes for OTT measurements which may be important for those fans of "over chart" seeds.

10/22/2003 2:58:40 PM

Utah

I doubt a large % of the data is inaccurate. I'm sure there are some errors here and there... i was going to say what Brent said. the information is only as good as the person who submits it. so double check it before you send it in.
The error I have noticed in some of the data is that the cross is reversed.

10/22/2003 3:26:40 PM

Montoursville, PA

FOOD FOR THOUGHT....... Years ago when the BASS TOURNAMENTS began anyone with fifty bucks and a boat could enter. In due time BASS TOURNAMENTS became the domain of the very best.

I believe if this hobby is to survive it will evolve into levels of activity. The cowboys who pay the price and ride the meanest bull should win the high bucks. The champions travel as competition associates to the Rodeo with big cash on the line. The media follows.

More or less the pumpkin grower heavy hitters have evolved to stardom in pumpkin growing. They have not attracted greater and greater pay offs but this takes time and serious work. Neither the Bass Masters or the Rodeo Cowboys got it done overnight.

Will this come into pumpkin growing? No one knows but it sure is food for thought as we chase the bugs out of our patches. The next twenty years will see change. That is a goes with.

10/22/2003 3:53:28 PM

Menomonie, WI ([email protected])

Sometimes also people submit info from other growers pumpkins, that are not actually AGGC members.

10/22/2003 4:20:03 PM

Menomonie, WI ([email protected])

Jim come to Nekoosa where the serious growers go....lol

10/22/2003 4:20:58 PM

Itzetown City

Jim, not only the female flowers should be covered before and after, cover the maleflowers also before you use them for pollinating if you want a sure cross.

10/22/2003 4:39:31 PM

Webster, NY

Even if it is inaccurate, you still know it a pumpkin was 1000 lbs, the female plant it came from and a history of what the seeds have produced. All in all, pretty valuable information.

Even so, I would think most of it is pretty good.

10/22/2003 5:55:04 PM

Stouffville

because what do most of us look for anyway? ...the seeds that have produced the big ones, not potential new gems...

10/22/2003 5:57:26 PM

Stouffville

nor genetic understanding

10/22/2003 6:00:31 PM

Leicester, NY

Most growers I deal with, take the time and effort to control their crosses and I totally trust the AGGC data sent in by them. Jim, 1 out of 20, yikes!If there's ever a doubt in ones mind about the integrity of a particular cross, it must be listed as an open pollination. Every blossom, male and female, should be covered or protected the night before they are to open. Another method that works well for me involves covering the females the night before and cutting the males off and bringing them inside for the night. Then, they're really ready to go in the morning:-) Whatever it takes to keep those silly bees out of the blossoms, we have to do it, if we are to keep control our crosses…Joe P.

10/22/2003 6:47:48 PM

Greencastle, PA

some pumpkins from the same seed may differ not becasue of different pollinators, but recessive genes may come through in a few of the seeds, and if you were to look at a punnet square you'd really be able to see how often it could happen.
tom

10/22/2003 6:56:06 PM

Paradise Mountain, New York

I cover my females and males a day before i think there going to open. Then when i pollinate the female, i put a rubber band around it to keep it closed. I don't remove the rubber band until a few days later at least

10/22/2003 7:04:32 PM

[email protected]

None of our pumpkins here broke 500 Lbs so AGGC isn't a consideration anyway. But we only have one pumpkin that I'll name a pollinator for. It's the only one that didn't blow here at home! LOL All the rest either split or aborted no matter if they were open or of known integrity.

It was such a bother to cover all those flowers that I performed the operation on only 3 occasions here & I have only 1 fruit to show for those efforts. Swishing away that many bees, I can't believe I didn't get stung a few times. But if we ever expect good growers to try our crosses, it's the least we can do in the name of the game. And at least that one pumpkin (still on vine & not yet weighed 707 Toftness x self) I can say in good conscience that I know it's parentage. And anyone who wants to grow it can trust my sincerity. I know for a fact that it is a true clean pollination.

But the pumpkins we grew at my son's school are both listed as "Open Pollinated" since I couldn't get into the school at dusk or sunrise even if I had wanted to. (And I didn't!) But since the students & faculty don't rank among the worlds premier Giant Pumpkin growers, I don't feel terrible about giving them the seeds. And who's to say the bees didn't do them a favor anyway?

For the record, I will acknowlege my concern for the integrity of this sort of data. Keeping *ALL* the insects that are capable of carrying pollen out of *ALL* the flowers that may be used is a serious challenge. But then what part of this sport/hobby isn't?

Beware the growers of the Bastard Pumpkins I guess. LOL
And be sure you know who you're dealing with if genetics is a serious concern to you.

IMHO

Steve

10/22/2003 7:46:01 PM

in my opinion checking for flowers that will open the next day,tying them up is something i wait a entire year to do..its kind of a celebrated occasion that only lasts for a few days and when thats done a grower gets down to the real fun of growing the fruit out..I tie all flowers before and after but I only have one plant so its not a burden..its just plain fun...

10/22/2003 8:06:07 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

I always cover mine the anticipated night before, and for 2 days after for good measure. There is never a question in my mind what the cross is.

10/22/2003 9:18:29 PM

New Hampshire

I agree with the the concern that JimR had in his original post. Every seed is the Biproduct of one grain of pollen. One small act of non-protection of the male and female flower and you have in reality a open pollinated cross. Other words who knows what the true cross of any one seed. That act does not only effect the cross of that generation but many after that. Once the gene pool is mislabeled its like seperating sugar and salt after it's mixed. I beleive if we really knew the true gentics of our seeds we would be shocked. Don't get me wrong I love AGGC and think Mike has one of the most awesome Internet sites on the Internet,but He does not have controll over our pollinating practices. I would not put all my hopes on growing a big one from finding that new hot seed but put more time in building up your soil and learning the basic principles of plant biology. Just my opinion. Jim Ford

10/22/2003 10:41:02 PM

South Hill, Virginia

Tremor,

I think PumpkiNut may have a pumpkin or two over 500 pounds:)

10/22/2003 11:17:42 PM

Arnprior, Ontario

Now that the season is over - everyone has the whole winter to have all the females they know to save them old nylons. Cut them off and use the foot portion of them. They work great. I put them on males and females even a couple days before they open and you can see right through them in the morning to tell wether they are open or not. They also fit tight around the bloom preventing any bees from getting in - yet not too tight to hamper the bloom from opening normally. Glenn

10/22/2003 11:32:29 PM

Pumpkintown, SC

I for one love the AGGC! I spend WAY too many hours on it researching genetic lines. Living near "Mike" in the deep south more or less limits our true chances to compete with the big dogs. So, genetics is all I have. I strive year after year to create or recreate certain characteristics that I personally desire in my pumpkins. The AGGC is my only bible for this info. If this genetic info is less than 100% accurate it is practically useless to me and can cost me results in terms of years. This is not a pleasant thought, though I fear it is true as Jim found out. I know we all don't take the same care in the prevention of tarnished genetics, and thats ok, as long as the rest of us are not led to believe otherwise. I certainly don't have all the answers but maybe since we are to provide what crosses we have made...maybe we should also be made to include what crossing practices we used as well. It's not that any of us should "have to do it" any one way, just, that when a cross is mentioned, we at least know the method employed, to help us judge for our-selves the purity of the cross. Case in point, some of us may use the nylon method Glenn mentions above. And that's fine. But others may think pollen grains may be able to fit within the weave of the nylon. I just feel that the more info we can provide, the more valuable the info becomes. As for me, my SC record this year didn't come from a 1000lb pumpkin, a seed that has produced a 1000lb pumpkin or for that matter produced anything, and I doubt hardly anyone besides myself grew it. Maybe no one else. But I liked its genetics based on what was provided on the AGGC. For me, more info is better(kinda like this response). {:^)> BF

10/23/2003 10:38:36 AM

Arnprior, Ontario

I guess what I should have said in my post above is the nylon does not damage the bloom in any way. Never had one open inside the nylon -doubt if they could - but they do as soon as you remove it.

10/23/2003 5:43:30 PM