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Appalachian Mtns.

Cowpie made a good point in his thread..that the best crosses/ producers are probably sitting in a jar or freezer somewhere, destined to never be planted.
The argument of small pumpkin seeds-vs.-large pumpkin seeds has come up many times. I have always felt and asserted, that smaller seed have the same genetic capability as seed from 1000+ pounders. In fact, most 1000+ pumpkins come from 500-800 lb pumpkin seed and "typically" the bigger seed don't live up to their hype. Some seed in the 300# range have shown to be proven, as evidenced by the 310 Eisenhaur for example.

Many say that environmental factors and size determine the potential of a seed. The bigger the pumpkin, the better the seed.
What say you all now after seeing the 582 crank out 2644# from 2 pumpkins?
Opinions, thoughts?

9/12/2003 8:07:33 AM

Knopp, Germany

Any seed that grows a heavy pumpkin, regardless of it's own mothers weight,(695 Handy or 455 Andrews as prvious examples, 582 Hester this year) will be given the attention of the growers with the most experience, best soil, and desire. The previous three factors with the luck of the weather/ability to overcome diversity, will then make that one seed a hot seed. That is the opinion of someone that doesn't know the first thing about genetics, just common sense.

9/12/2003 8:48:18 AM

Deer Park, WI

The number in front of the grower's name makes absolutely no difference when it comes to seed potential. Its what's inside that seed coat that counts. Lets take two fruit on the same plant, both pollinated by the same male. One of these grows to 1000, cuz its on the main vain and given much attention. The other grows to 150lbs, is on a secondary vine as a backup, gets no attention. The genetics in the seeds these fruit produce are exactly the same for our purpose, and each has the same potential. I know of a fruit out there right now going on 800lbs grown from a ~150 lb parent. Keep an eye out for big fruit from small parents this year...the proof is coming...

9/12/2003 9:02:48 AM

Ontario

Unfortunatly I'm going to touch on the hybrid vigor thing! If you look back at the older 1000 lb. pumpkins you'll find that as a rule they just didn't ever seem to come from other 1000 lb. pumpkins. It's only recently that large pumpkins are coming from large pumpkins. I think this a natural progression of the larger progeny producing larger progeny. This has been brought about by everybody sharing seed and essentialally doing a survival of the biggest thing (Darwinism?). The hybrid vigor thing has to the most part been bred out. That brings us to the 582 Hester. I really think this is throw back to the hybrid vigor days. Great cross, but do you think the seeds are going to produce well? In the old days the answer would be no. Getting back to thread topic (I did remember).... well yes and no. There's no diffinitive answer. The ability to thrive in adverse conditions can be passed on through progeny. Two seeds from the same pumpkin can be planted in the same patch in the same year and one may thrive and one not. If you make the same cross on each, then in theory the progeny from each should be equal right? That may not be so. I still would lean towards the larger of the pumpkins of the same cross. When all is said and done, there are no set answers. Anybody who thinks they have this figured out is mistaken.

9/12/2003 9:39:04 AM

Cologne / Germany

I´m happy to see we are still far away from final solutions...if we had them that would take away much of the thrill. There´s still so much to learn and to improve, noone can even say what a 100% patch should look like. Reading the featured grower transcripts, I assume the HH´s do more a kind of "barebone business" than looking for sophisticated concepts and hypes. I hope that gene technology thing will stay out here in future - AG´s can do it all on their own...
Back to homework;-)
PS: 582Hester x 695Handy - I remebered Don Q asked for it a long time ago:
http://www.bigpumpkins.com/MsgBoard/ViewThread.asp?b=1&p=33339
How could he know...;-)

9/12/2003 10:29:31 AM

Edmonton, Canada

My seed library consists of about 15 seeds. I really don't want or need more than that. I agree that a seed with good genetics could have come from a fruit that's quite small, and I'm not going to join in the seed request frenzy!

9/12/2003 10:47:59 AM

Montoursville, PA

I have a 582 in sight for my use next year. There is some concern of it being one with a tendency to split when grown in the East. Yet it has to have great git up and go genetics. Maybe with a little cross and selfing it could adapt into "less that split tendency" if in fact that is a real tendency. I agree that soil condition and technique may be every bit as important.

After all is said and done we seldom recognize that we are always pushing for more than the history of average has proven. Good grief....no wonder we have some difficulties to deal with. Fun though!

With all the excitement this year we will hear many comments and opinions some of which will possibly be worth considering.

I honestly believe the two seed I grew this year are 1000 lb. seeds in the right hands. You will not see it reading just the seed number I produced. :)

9/12/2003 11:47:06 AM

Pulaski Tn [email protected]

i could plant the best dad burn seed there is and my crummy farm land wouldnt let it get over 300 lbs...

9/12/2003 12:24:38 PM

Ontario

I did a little research and found this little fact. The 940 Mombert (98) had a little brother on the same plant,the 888 Mombert. They were both crossed with the same pollinator, the 567.5 Mombert. The prodgeny from each as follows.
940 Mombert... 1262,996,881,860,810
888 Mombert... 801,798,634,556

OK guys, what was the big genetic difference between the two? I think the ability thrive factor should not be discounted. Their is no doubt that a small pumpkin with a great cross can throw a big one. The numbers and examples are there to make that case. I just think that you can hedge your bets a bit by using the largest example of the cross that you want to try. BTW it is also my opinion that any grower not proving out at least one of their own seeds should be drummed out of the pumpkin growers union! ;0)

9/12/2003 12:57:18 PM

Knopp, Germany

Cowpie, the 790 Daletas and the 716 Daletas are another example, though you won't find anything about the 716 on the AGGC, yet........wait a couple of weeks though.....:-)

9/12/2003 1:04:32 PM

Caceres, mid west of Spain

A pollen grain and an ovule are not the same as his brother pollen from the same flower or a sister ovule from the same blossom, as they can get more genes from their father or from their mother, and that is a matter of luck. So the 940 Mombert and the 888 Momber could have resulted similar or not, it depends on luck and how genetic different were the grandparents.
The correct fecundation has to have some importance as well, because a vigorous plant is a genetic problem free plant, and the smallest trouble at pollination time can result in an imperfect future genetic background on the seeds, or on some of the seeds. Remember that each seed come from one ovule and one pollen grain. Too warm day, too wet, a knock on the blossom, you didn't get up early enough... can make some or many of the seeds don't go as well as they could.
In the other hand it seems that some people has a green thumb, others, a good eye for crosses, and others, like Bobier, Stelts, Mombert... a "sexual thumb".

9/12/2003 1:26:05 PM

Tipp City, Ohio

I'm with you blkcloud! But, there is always next year.

9/12/2003 1:30:20 PM

ontario

Phil interesting thoughts.....I wonder how many 940 Momberts were planted vs how many 888 Momberts....maybe its not just the size......maybe everyone sings to the same tune and one gets planted more than the other.......look at the 898 Knauss, how many grown this year....lets say we started a rumor the 543 Billy Bob ( 723 Bobier x 846 Calai) just threw a 1174 that was 26% heavy.....next year that seed would be in the hands of some of the best growers in the world...I am sure we would see a couple 900-1000 lbers off that seed........very complex this seed thing....I think we need seed crosses that have both huge fruit and heavy as the mix........wayne

9/12/2003 2:17:28 PM

Caceres, mid west of Spain

And split free. That is the main reason for many huge ones not to go to the contest!

9/13/2003 1:19:27 AM

New Brunswick

Anyone out there grow a 945 Van? My plant produced two pumpkins but one had a stem split at 75 pounds or so. I culled it. The other one, a lovely square shaped orange pumpkin quit growing at around 150 pounds and now has a deep hole down at the base of the stem with orange pulp oozing out. This started as stem rot and no amount of tlc stopped it. Could this be a genetic thing with this plant??

9/13/2003 12:06:53 PM