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Chesterfield, MO

Hey Folks

Will Merit or other systemic insecticides/fungicides kill or stunt mycorrhiza and other beneficials when applied to the soil? Thank you in advance for your advise!

Steve G.

8/30/2003 3:17:43 PM

Montoursville, PA

No insecticide or fungicide of synthetic origin has within it any biological support for your soil. To use them and how much has to be an individual judgement.

The bottom line on what to use might require the awarness that the soil is so bad that one just can not quit all at once. Withdrawal may involve an increase of biologically sound choices and a gradual withdrawal over several years, of those products you would like to eliminate. This depends on how much is out of ballance and how bad the out of ballance factors may be.

The book Dear Dirt Doctor, Garrett, University of Texas Press would be a great support to anyone making a decision to work towards a more natural healthy soil condition.

8/30/2003 5:58:42 PM

[email protected]

Beneficial arthropods like millipedes & sow bugs get hammered. These do nothing directly for pumpkins but do benefit the conversion of organic matter in soils. Mycorrizhae does not seem to be affected. Fungicides will take out some Mz. But not so most insecticides. Bacteria is untouched by Imidacloprid.

So far the worst allegation I have heard leveled against Imidacloprid is that it may turn up in pollin. However empassioned these reports, I have yet to read one I would say was from a credible source. The bees in my patch sure don't seem to mind. Though time will tell.

Steve

8/30/2003 7:36:51 PM

Montoursville, PA

If the millipedes and sowbugs get hammered this means that the humis they cause to be produced does not get created from the organic matter in the soil that they do not process.

If one can in fact build a strong soil using biologically sound materials including corn meal and molasses the healthy plants created as a result do in fact resist both some insect damage and some fungi damage. The result is the elimination of fungicides in the growing of some plants and the reduction of some in most plants.

Imidacloprid is a deadly poison as clearly indicated by the
label of the maker with strict prevention of personal contact using protective clothing and chemical masks followed by immediate wash down or scrub down following use. We are also instructed to prevent others from entering our patches for some period following application. I need no further motivation to attempt ceasing the use of the same.

The difficult decision one must make would be to stop growing pumpkins, squash and related plants so that one may not need this specific product. It does not seem at this time that the AG can be adequately protected from SVB without the use of some of this chemical or other harsh chemicals. Time and experimentation will tell.

There are alternatives but admitedly they are most expensive to use. I suspect that if certain organizations get their wishes we will either go to alternative proceedures or quit growing AG's.

8/30/2003 9:21:19 PM

Montoursville, PA

There are at least two growers who come here regularly who do not now and never have used any harsh chemicals in their patches. I almost got this accomplished this year. My hopes would be to get that good soil health in the patch using manures and less harsh chemicals. I know this can be achieved from personal previous experiences that did not involve these cranky pumpkins...the SVB, the beetles and of course powdery milldew. The chemicals I do use are generally concieved to be the best so that I can get results using the least of any given one. This does not reduce my desire to be even less chemically dependent on the synthetic side of the issue.

I guess the worst fear I realized was the manufacturer's own label warnings that seem to indicate I could kill myself breathing or making skin contact with the product. I guess it would be a little difficult leaching it out of your lungs or other live body tissue. Yes I will do my best to reduce or cease using these really bad ones by using some alternatives.

8/30/2003 9:21:35 PM

Oz

if you want bugs,,let me know,,,my land has soooooo many!!
ill let ya come by and pick some!!!
do svb have natural controls?
like praying mantis,nematodes,,,,,,,,,,,,,what others?
pumpkin spiders?
i have some spiders living in the shade tee pees i have over pumpkins.

8/30/2003 11:41:33 PM

[email protected]

Dwaine,

Are they west of the Rockie's?

Bayer places all that info on the label for 2 reasons.
1.) It's the law.
2.) Liberal Judges & lawyers.

They know full & well no one will ever take all the precautions that are recommended. That said, if we do have a reaction, they have us in court.

Imidacloprid is labeled for direct application on Cat's, Dog's & livestock. They're also working on a head Louse label for children. Seems like a reasonable replacement to Lindane to me. Yes. Lindane is still labeled for juvenile scalp treatments.

Don't get me wrong. I wholey endorse IPM & minimal use of chemicals to the extent allowed by environmental pressures. But Merit is hardly cause for concern as long as some growers are still playing around with Sevin & Captan dust.

And the Millipedes are back in my patch within 2 weeks of using Merit each & every time. I think sometimes we give ourselves too much credit for the impact we have on our environment. We have much less power than we think we do.

Steve

8/30/2003 11:47:19 PM

Oz

ahem,,,hooker chemical love canal...
even grass ferts are screwing up our streams,,,
what happens to merit?
does it break down?

8/31/2003 1:33:19 AM

Joliet, IL

use it or don't, it is that simple. if your conscience
tells you not to use it, don't. if growing chickens
in little coops or raising a steer to get a fat
juicy steak bothers you, then eat vegetables. if your
house is infestided with termites, do you do an exorcism
and hope they go away? might as well let the ants come
marching in too. this is called hinduism. if a law was
made today globally that no chemicals or fertilizers
were allowed to be used, we would starve to death.
it is a double edged sword, as is almost everything in life.
let your own conscience guide you.

i will use merit next year because
the svb is my number one enemy in my patch. if some
centipedes die or don't like it in my backyard, then
tough luck...move to the neighbors backyard.

8/31/2003 8:34:24 AM

Montoursville, PA

One of these three nuked my earthworm population, big time this spring: Urea, Merit, ContactInsecticides. They have not returned in any significant number. I do not know but think the present population of larger worms are attempting to reproduce. The small new worm can not yet survive the nuking. To my management thinking this is a major loss if only for some period of time some call temporary. I did not suffer this event in my small vegetable garden where I use no harsh chemicals.

Urica....an organic products specialized store has blossomed from barn floor existance to a real retail front. Stopped and peeked. They have most of the good stuff by one name or another and a hundred tons of available compost PH 6.5 this fall. I just touched my first corn gluton offered as a better way to go after the weeds during pre-emergence. It breaks down to all healthy soil elements. If I read correctly only twenty pounds on a 1000 ft. patch fall and spring does a pretty darn good job.

8/31/2003 8:46:09 AM

Oz

look . i grew up in cement city(motown)..
chemical plants all around.
and superfund sites.
ive seen huge tumors on fine people.
ive had a dear friend cry and plead to me to end his pain...sorry,,,,
i bet they make bug death there,,,dow/basf/hooker,etc!!!

now i have PURE unspoiled, deep appalachia, foothills!
clean water and air.I GOT BUGS/FLORA/FAUNA!
a gift from God,but not mine.

if it dont break down,,, it will come back to you.
ddt.........agent orange,,cloridane,,

look up river from where you are and ask ,is it clean?
to many people,,,i am up river from where they are.
that is a covenant of trust.
many dont follow this.

there are nasty chem/clorine/etc companies hidden down river from me. and they dont respect this covenant cause greed exceeds need in thier hearts.
why does it matter???
the water is always in a cycle.

IF MY HOBBIES OR OCCUPATION CAUSE POLLUTION THEN I NEED OTHER INTRESTS!
CHANGE IT OR STOP IT!
GRAMPS WOULD SAY... look beyond your pumpkins!

8/31/2003 11:55:32 AM

Oz

as far as termites...give them nothing to eat and they will not come to dinner,,,etc...

8/31/2003 11:56:58 AM

Long Island,New York

Hey McPumpkin...How come that advice doesn't work with my mother-in-law?

8/31/2003 3:43:08 PM

Itzetown City

ROTFL! May be, most mothers-in-law are incalculable.

8/31/2003 4:07:52 PM

Oz

inverce,,,feed her pumpkin pie till she has to "go".
lol make sure your comode is broken...hehe.....

8/31/2003 11:48:26 PM