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That State Up North

Hello everyone

I have a question about giant pumpkin genetics. Well sort of, my question is this:
If there is one thing you could have answered concerning genetics and its application to giant pumpkins, what would that question be?
I am also offering to answer all questions which have a known answer, so fire away. The answers may not come quickly from me as this is planting time, and I am taking finals, but I would like to know what everyone else wants to know. Help me out with making a list of questions, and I will help you out with a list of answers.

thanks

Nic Welty

4/29/2003 5:25:38 AM

Knopp, Germany

How good are the chances that a pumpkin such as the 716 Daletas will be as good producing offspring as the the 790 Daletas? Both came from the same plant, both are the same cross. And thanks for your offer........owen

4/29/2003 6:37:41 AM

Knopp, Germany

One follow up to that last question, I would like to pollinate the 996.5 Handy with the 716 with the intent of purifying the 790 genes in the 996.5. Will this work?

4/29/2003 6:39:05 AM

Frankfurt, Germany

has one ever cared to make a chromosomes count on AG? - I ve found different informations on how many it should be in cucurbita maxima, but does anyone really did cared and counted?

4/29/2003 7:04:58 AM

Frankfurt, Germany

is there really no negative effects on incest in AG?

4/29/2003 7:06:14 AM

Deer Park, WI

Hi Nic. My name is Joe from WI. Is it possible to isolate the luminescence plasmid from angler fish luminescent bacteria, then employ recombinant DNA techniques to combine this with the Ti plasmid in Agrobacterium. Shotgun clone the Ti-luminescence hybrid into the nucleus, thereby producing a pumpkin that glows in the dark? Just funnin ya man!

4/29/2003 9:27:16 AM

St. Thomas Ontario

Can true hybrid vigor only be achieved by crossing AG's on themselves a few times (inbreed), followed by an 'outcross'? Or does it really matter? Thanks in advance.

4/29/2003 9:41:33 AM

syracuse, ny

what i wanted to ask you at the 2003 seminar, but never saw a good opportunity for, was "ahem, i've noticed that certain really big fruit have been grown from only two seeds that i've noticed it on, the 674.5 Waterman '90 and the 801 Black---they each have spawned a huge fruit after about
3 or 4 selfings (962 Willemse and 1056.5 Ruff )--if we keep on selfing a certain seed for long enough, such as the 1140 or the 845 or the 567.5 Mombert and so on, could there be a point at which these seeds themselves will exhibit their OWN degree of hybrid (although selfed) vigor?
if it worked for these, will it work for just about any, is my question. thanks--good luck on yer finals! pass! 'pal

4/29/2003 6:04:41 PM

Western Pa.

Damn!

Joze took my question!

4/29/2003 7:06:48 PM

[email protected]

Can we ever purify an isolated strain to produce a valid cultivar without mass planting (for observation & selection) every seed from each selection?
In my opionion, sending seed all over the country (however nobel the intentions) undermines this possibility.

Steve Jepsen in CT

4/29/2003 9:13:38 PM

Glenn Springs S.C.

Damn!
Kilr stole my joke!

4/29/2003 9:47:41 PM

Menomonie, WI ([email protected])

When are they going to make an Atlantic Giant Variety that is SVB resistant?

4/29/2003 11:31:19 PM

Jackson Twp, Ohio

Nic,

Thanks for offering to do this. If you could have any 10 2002 seeds what would they be and why? And if you could make 10 crosses using any seeds what would they be?

On a lighter note, since it appears possible that we could have jack o lanterns that don't need candles since they glow in the dark. What are your plans for making roundup ready pumpkins that also either secrete an inscticide or are hybridized with a venus fly trap? This might also be an end to our ground hog problem.

Thanks Nic.

4/30/2003 8:03:03 AM

That State Up North

In response to:
How good are the chances that a pumpkin such as the 716 Daletas will be as good producing offspring as the the 790 Daletas? Both came from the same plant, both are the same cross. And thanks for your offer........owen

For this question, it is critical to understand how a seed is formed. When making a cross between two plants, pollen from one plant and an ovary (immature seed in the female) combine to form the embryo which resides in the seed you will plant next season. Every ovary and every pollen has a little different genetics. This is why every seed is different. Also, assuming we do not have a abnormally high mutation frequency (no uranium fertilizer) the genetic makeup of a plant is the same everywhere on a plant. One male flower contains many pollen grains, each different, but on the same plant derived from the same genetic source. This is also true for every female on a plant. So every time you pollinate between the exact same two plants, the expected result will be the same. This expected result is a mix of seeds comprising different combinations of the same two gene pools (mother and father). So from this, the 790 and 716 Daletas will have the same expected odds of producing a large fruit. This will hold for any crosses made between the same plants, such as 903 and 879 Holland. Do not however confuse this situation with crosses between the same two seeds. Examples of this are 723/845 Bobier, 846/1074 Calai, and 455 Andrews/697 Cilliberto. In this case the expected result is not the same because you are using different plants, so there will be a different range of combinations formed in the seeds.

5/4/2003 1:21:44 PM

That State Up North

One follow up to that last question, I would like to pollinate the 996.5 Handy with the 716 with the intent of purifying the 790 genes in the 996.5. Will this work?

Yes 996.5 Handy x 716 Daletas will work well as an F2 backcross to purify the gene pool which is contributing to the success of the 790 Daletas. This will work just as good as using a 790. Should be a good cross, best of luck. Also using a 1245 Bailey to backcross may make some interesting seeds.

5/4/2003 1:21:58 PM

That State Up North

has one ever cared to make a chromosomes count on AG? - I ve found different informations on how many it should be in cucurbita maxima, but does anyone really did cared and counted?

No specific count that I am aware of, someone stole my microscope last summer when I had arranged to count them, maybe this summer. The info I have is that the hubbard squash also a c. maxima has 20 chromosomes, and I am guessing that AG is the same since it is possible to pollinate between the two.

5/4/2003 1:22:28 PM

That State Up North

is there really no negative effects on incest in AG?

There can be a negative effect, but with a large population to select from, many of the negative effects can be curtailed. The negative effect of incest is due largely to increased expression of recessive traits for negative qualities. In our case with AG we are looking for many recessive traits as desirable. There are obviously some recessive traits we don’t want, but with AG breeding we can usually eliminate these plants by not growing seed from fruit which did not perform well. The key here is selection of the fittest and a large population to keep from having the problems the European medieval nobles had.

5/4/2003 1:22:45 PM

That State Up North

Hi Nic. My name is Joe from WI. Is it possible to isolate the luminescence plasmid from angler fish luminescent bacteria, then employ recombinant DNA techniques to combine this with the Ti plasmid in Agrobacterium. Shotgun clone the Ti-luminescence hybrid into the nucleus, thereby producing a pumpkin that glows in the dark? Just funnin ya man!

Yes, this could be accomplished, and may in the very near future. Shotgun techniques are cheap and can be conducted on a large scale to whatever magnitude is necessary to ensure success, so that shouldn’t be too difficult. Also consider the possibility that such luminescent plasmids are readily purchasable, and given a little knowledge on restriction enzyme sites and gene mapping of c. maxima this luminescent gene could be inserted in a region specific for fruit color and carotene expression. Don’t need the entire plant to glow, just the fruit.

5/4/2003 1:23:25 PM

That State Up North

Can true hybrid vigor only be achieved by crossing AG's on themselves a few times (inbreed), followed by an 'outcross'? Or does it really matter? Thanks in advance.

This is a tricky question, and to give the full answer will require writing a book. Things to consider; what is hybrid vigor? What are we really aiming for?
Hybrid vigor is a very ambiguous subject, and hard to quantify even though it appears to exist in many varieties. I can say that I have seen what would appear to be proof in AG crosses by taking two smaller fruit, crossing and observing all progeny larger than the parents. Now the other problem is this, heterosis is supposedly the cause of hybrid vigor. Many of the genes targeted to create the AG of competitive size have been indicated to be recessive. This posses the problem of creating heterosis when the genes of interest are homozygous in all specimens of desired phenotype. The way I view this is that what we want is a seed with high consistency expressing the desired traits for size. So just look to make smart crosses, purifying and working within the best genes in the world, and through a process of selection, we will continue perfecting the seeds we plant hopefully up past 2000 pounds. Will we some day be able to purify two lines each entirely different yet producing 2000 lb, and cross these to create a 4000 lb line? Seems unlikely, but time will tell.

5/4/2003 1:23:50 PM

That State Up North

what i wanted to ask you at the 2003 seminar, but never saw a good opportunity for, was "ahem, i've noticed that certain really big fruit have been grown from only two seeds that i've noticed it on, the 674.5 Waterman '90 and the 801 Black---they each have spawned a huge fruit after about
3 or 4 selfings (962 Willemse and 1056.5 Ruff )--if we keep on selfing a certain seed for long enough, such as the 1140 or the 845 or the 567.5 Mombert and so on, could there be a point at which these seeds themselves will exhibit their OWN degree of hybrid (although selfed) vigor?
if it worked for these, will it work for just about any, is my question. thanks--good luck on yer finals! pass! 'pal
First off, let me point out that vigor and size do not result solely from the production of a hybrid. Vigor and size can come from simple inheritance of desirable traits. Now addressing multiple generations of self pollination, and a large fruit being produced, this can make clear sense when examining simple inheritance. The event of selfing a few times and having a monster fruit is something that occurs only due to much chance. With only a couple plants grown and selfed, the odds are greatly in favor of isolating some undesirable recessive traits along with good traits. In order to overcome this problem, and likewise as previously posted the negative effects of incest is to select the fittest, and select from a large population of selfed plants.

5/4/2003 1:24:20 PM

That State Up North

Aa bb CC Dd Ee x self
If Aa bb CC dd EE = Really big fruit; then from the results of selfing, you will have the following odds of getting this favorable genotype:
½ (Aa) x 1 (bb) x 1 (CC) x ¼ (dd) x ¼ (EE) = 1/32
so one out of 32 odds of first generation selfing producing this large fruit. So it is very possible to have something large result from selfing, and there may be many intermediate results with mixed fruit sizes. I hope more than anything this will illustrate how selfing can be used to make good pure lines that retain competitive viability. It is just a matter of selection.

5/4/2003 1:24:26 PM

That State Up North

Can we ever purify an isolated strain to produce a valid cultivar without mass planting (for observation & selection) every seed from each selection?
In my opionion, sending seed all over the country (however nobel the intentions) undermines this possibility.

Steve Jepsen in CT

It may be possible, but I think it is highly unlikely, mass planting is the only way to really achieve this. The other idea is that since there are only a couple people capable of mass planting, the seeds can be sent out, and pollination and selection of the best cultivars coordinated. In this way forming a cooperative network of growers selecting to produce the best seeds. This exists now by necessity of everyone working to get the biggest fruit, but due to dissimilar environments comparisons are difficult. Such a large scale project could be undertaken coordinating plantings and crosses, and if growers can take the care to give equal treatment to all plants, some very useful information may result in the implementation of clone planting.

5/4/2003 1:24:37 PM

That State Up North

When are they going to make an Atlantic Giant Variety that is SVB resistant?

Whom are you referring to as “they” the omnipresent force of scheming deviants who must always be heard of but never clearly seen? Ok, there is probably no one working on this for AGs currently, the better question may be when I will get around to it. I do not foresee this being something I or any other researchers have looked to target. If the gene where found in AG, it would be simple. It is likely however that the gene is present in some wild cucurbit in central America. In order to get the gene back into AG it would take a two part multi species breeding project, and probably a couple years of work just to see any kind of expressing. Then many more years to work with the new seed stock before it would make anything worth planting for competition. It would be much easier to modify an AG to produce a chemical toxic to SVB. And even easier is to use a systemic insecticide, these are readily available and work well, so that makes it much less captivating to try and make an SVB resistant AG

5/4/2003 1:25:03 PM

That State Up North

Nic,

Thanks for offering to do this. If you could have any 10 2002 seeds what would they be and why? And if you could make 10 crosses using any seeds what would they be?

On a lighter note, since it appears possible that we could have jack o lanterns that don't need candles since they glow in the dark. What are your plans for making roundup ready pumpkins that also either secrete an inscticide or are hybridized with a venus fly trap? This might also be an end to our ground hog problem.

Thanks Nic.

If I could have any 2002 seeds, I would like 1215 Hebb, 963 Needham (and it was green), 413 Wolf, and 1049 Koch based simply on a fact of scarcity. Another 5 seeds I would desire for their gene pool and its prospectus are 1337 Houghton, 1245 Bailey, 1053 Ruff, 1156 Larson, and 930 Barlow. Then one more, makes it tough, I haven’t gone over last year’s results too closely due to focous on my school work, but I would like more of my 432 pound fruit, and the 1074 Calai and 884 Calai just because the 1074 was so amazing to see, only half inch smaller in dimension than 1337 and it was smooth glossy red orange, flawless, near perfect shape. Only big fruit I can remember looking as nice was the 846.

5/4/2003 1:25:35 PM

That State Up North

10 crosses, also a difficult call, can’t say these are my top pics, just what came to mind off the top of my head; here is a short wish list:
574 Mitchel x 816 Gancarz
589 Nesbit x 574 Mitchel
413 Wolf x self (and it weighs 1000 pounds)
801.5 Stelts x 455 Andrews
884 Calai x 742 Pachuki
884 Calai x 1337 Houghton
1156 Larson x 898 Knaus
1337 Houghton x 1245 Bailey
387 Welty x 756 Meyers
744 Welty x 220 Andrews
1215 Hebb x 1062 Rivard
650 Lloyd ’96 x 824.5 Veens
Oops that was 12, I will stop there, way too many good crosses to be had out there.
Don’t tell Monsanto about the roundup ready pumpkins, and preliminary results on the venus flytrap intermingling was that they eat small children along with the groundhogs so there will have to be more trials done before it can be marketed.

5/4/2003 1:25:42 PM

Knopp, Germany

thanks Nic, you mind if i take a time out, my brain is burning

5/4/2003 1:40:19 PM

Wroclaw, Poland (51 N, 17 E)

How do you think, will it be good to cross 840 Desrosiers with 1012,5 Papez?

5/4/2003 2:06:58 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

Could you critique the following crosses please?

951 Castellucci x 1097 Beachy
1026 Holland x 780 Kuhn
1092 Burke x 962 Willemse
840 Hester x 901 Hebb
414 Sharier x 350 Sadowski

Thanks Nic

5/4/2003 2:53:08 PM

Paradise Mountain, New York

Of these five plants which would you keep and what would you pick for crosses. 790 Daletas, 582 Hester, 898 Knuass, 807 beachy and the 845 Nesbitt? Thanks for any help and your giving in put. Hope you have a great season this year. Also what do you think of my new watering system i put in this year. you can e-mail me to my regualar e-mail if you wish. Brian (PumpkinBrat)

5/4/2003 3:15:49 PM

Paradise Mountain, New York

Sorry, I forgot to tell you that I will be keeping four pumpkins out of the five above. Thanks again

5/4/2003 3:16:49 PM