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Ontario

So how are you people going to handle this situation? When the patent expires next year anyone can legally charge for seed (as long as you don't call it an Atlantic Giant, that's copyrighted). It's awfully tempting to charge for seed to help defray the costs but this sure opens up a can of worms. I'm sure some pretty ugly things are going to happen, such as padding out of that great cross that produced 150 seeds and some how 300 seeds are sold out of it. As the song goes "Money changes everything", and I must say seldom for the better. I would never like to see this made into a rich man's hobby but it just may come down to that. Personally I'd never charge for a seed, only trade. If I was that hard up for cash I'd put more time in at work rather than grow pumpkins. This supposed to be just for fun right? I think there's going to be a lot of noses out of joint in the up comming years. Think about this. You charge for a seed and it comes out to be a dud. Don't you think that may cause a few hard feelings. And what about those hucksters that are going to be at the weigh-offs offering to buy whole pumpkins to sell the seeds later. I'm sure these guys aren't going to care about the AGGC and will pad out the seed total. The results are going to be compromised for sure. Also what about hording? Are there growers out there holding back seed to sell in the comming years? They're out of luck if they expect me to pay up. If this gets to the point of who ever has the biggest wallet wins, I'm out of here. I'm going fishing.

4/12/2003 8:50:42 PM

canal winchester ohio

I used to think the same thing ( that all hell would break loose). And in the early stages in might, but it will probably weed itself out & alot of folks will just avoid the "bad eggs". I'll still swap seeds with the folks I do now because I trust them, & I'm sure all of you out there have your own circle of people you trust as well. I think the people that will be hurt the most are newcomers trying to get started & in the over eagerness will get taken for a ride by someone. And thats where its up to all the good & fair growers to do all they can to help newbies out & headed in the right direction.
Just keep your friends close & your enemies closer & you'll do just fine.....Paul

4/12/2003 9:09:54 PM

Puyallup, WA

In my opinion, the best way to solve this situation is for the grower organizations to dispense the seed of their growers. They can "certify" their members seed with a special mark on each seed. "Certified seed" will be in demand if the "heavy hitters" choose to participate. Clubs
should have the option to charge for this "certified seed".
Rather than put a overburden on the members, clubs can hire people to work in this area.

This suggest is far from perfect, but with additional input
could solve many potential problems that might arise in the Fall of 2004.

4/12/2003 10:33:51 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

The club idea is a thought but I don't think HH's will participate, why should they? There's no incentive and, let's be honest here, many of them sell seed now as it is...or only trade/share exclusively.
Without HH involvement it won't work...and then clubs become the players. Where does that then leave the little guy?

4/13/2003 6:39:13 AM

Rush, NY

Cowpie, as I stated in a post a while back (the theme was removed when it got ugly) free seeds for the cost of a bubble pack and stamps has only existed for the last 2 to 3 years. Prior to that if someone had a seeds that you wanted to plant FOR SURE, you mailed them 10 to 20 dollars as a DONATION to cover shipping and handling. They would mail you a few seeds. You did not send out bubble packs. I believe the system worked very well and growers did not take advantage of others. I remember the grower of the first pumpkin over 500 pounds sent me $40 for some seeds. I sent 10 seeds and returned $30. I hope it gets back to "the way it used to be" when Dill's PVP expires. Then growers of seeds with good potential won't get 150 to 180 requests for free seeds. People will only request seeds they intend to plant. This will also eliminate the "double bubbling". If someone wants to send a reasonable dollar amount 2 or 3 times, I would send them seeds 2 or 3 times, unless there was a limited number of seeds and I wanted as many growers as possible to obtain some. I would return the 2nd or 3rd request and money with an explanation.
A $10 donation for a few seeds is not going to keep new growers out of this wonderful hobby.
As for seed trading, I have a list of 37 growers that I have traded seeds with in the past and when I have some seeds that may have good potential I send all fo them some seeds. Most of them return some of their seeds. I will continue to do this. Over the years (before e-mail) I received many letters from people new to the sport requesting information about growing Giant Pumpkins and seeds. I always sent the information and free seeds to get them started.
Len Stellpflug

4/13/2003 7:23:56 AM

[email protected]

This is an interesting thought to which it is hard to find parallels. In the case of other PVP's such as Corn or Turfgrass we often see prices drop when patents expire.
Dill's Atlantic Giants (DAG's) are not realy a cultivar (cultivated variety) so I find them rather unique. DAG's are more like a species of their own with almost no peers.

Take Midnight Kentucky Bluegrass as an example. Due to it's quality, Midnight always commanded a premium price when it was patented. Because it doesn't yield well & it is stll rated at the top of the quality charts (NTEP), it still commands a premium. But buyers have always been free to purchase other cultivars if they didn't want to pay the premium. But even off-patent Midnight is still grown for seed. But now it can be grown & sold by anyone.

Such is not the case with DAG's. There aren't many other "non-cultivar" types to purchase. So this analogy is not very good. Add in the fact that other types of seed purchasers can't readilly procreate their own seed stocks & this whole subject becomes very different.

We'll just have to wait & see what happens when the next 723/845 or 846 comes along. It will be the buyers who determine the price if the producer isn't willing to trade or give them away freely.

Steve

4/13/2003 7:54:05 AM

Appalachian Mtns.

A DONATION is politically correct term for selling, which is a violation of the PVP, plain and simple.

Trading will always continue due to the increased number of growers in the hobby and the sheer enormity of volume of seed. If they're not "top" seed, and don't get traded, they'll rot or sit in a jar for 10-20 years.

"Double Bubbling" is a phrase made up to attach a negative label on the character of others. The act itself does NOT prove intentions one way or the other. Stupid phrase.

4/13/2003 9:09:54 AM

Usa

Len Stellpflug and Bill Clark sent me some seeds to play with and I have shared those with 3 other people plus my grandchildren (all new pumpkin growers) so that we all can learn and share our information on filing seed, using hormones or root enhancers, using different soils, peat pots/pellets, heat etc. then we share our information and will grow our chosen seeds the best way found. So I think that will continue. Thank you again Len and Bill the seeds have been used. I think people will still share.

4/13/2003 11:00:54 AM

Usa

I am just using the AGGC as an example so it could be the PGC or whatever.

I think their should be an organization like the AKC for Dogs only it should be like the AGGC or PGC for pumpkins.
I am going to use AGGC just for example.

1) A grower registers his seeds with the AGGC (sends registration form per pumpkin/squash with cost of registration depending on how many seeds registered and the number of pedigree papers (seeds) required to be sent to grower). Plus they would send in one seed for AGGC to keep.

2) Then AGGC sends the grower a seed form showing registered pedigree of each seed from that pumpkin.
They could be like small forms 8 - 10 to a sheet of paper showing.
--- parent
pumpkin seed name ---
--- parent

3) That pedigree would be sent on to the new owner of the newly acquired seed. Whether the seeds are bought / sold / traded /or a gift a pedigree from the AGGC would go with the seed. Unless given without pedigree.

4) If a pumpkins pedigree was questioned the DNA could be tested by a seed from that pumpkin/squash in question and the DNA from the seed the AGGC has.

5) The AGGC could keep the one seed so that it has an example of the seed grown. It would know the physical characteristics of that seed. That is where the AGGC would get the DNA sample if questions arose.

6)The DNA testing cost would be paid by the person that's pumpkin/squash is questioned.

Not all people would register their seeds. It would be the registered seeds that would be the proven pedigreed seeds and worth more to the serious pumpkin growers.

This is just an example of what I would like to see happen.
Thanks

4/13/2003 11:07:53 AM

Ontario

Oh Please, let's not get into another crap throwing contest about double bubbling and who did what to whom! It's embarassing to read as a grower. When you think about it the Dill's do a wonderful job. They charge a ridiculously low price for the amount of fun you can have for a whole summer. It's the gouging that is sure to happen when the Dill's are out of the picture that concerns me. I really can't see the prices dropping from where they are and it's our fellow hobbiest attitude that concerns me. As it stands when someone asks for an unproven seed he really is doing me a favor if it does get planted or it gets traded to someone who does plant it. Really what is an unproven seed worth? Until it has a track record that can not be established until it's been planted multiple times. If it starts throwing some big ones then OK it has some value and it's a tradible commodity. Until then it's worth is about what the Dill's charge. I don't have a problem buying unproven seed for club fundraisers but there's no way I'm donating to the pocket book of fellow growers. If you don't want to participate in the free seed scheme, then don't. Maybe you can just distribute 50 or 100 for the cost of mailing. You can only be a victim if you let yourself be. Just say no. Mind you, I really feel sorry for a guy like Fred Calai. He must really dread going to the mailbox in the morning. But getting back to the point of this thread.....When a grower has an established seed, is it ethical to start charging for seed? What crosses the line? $20 or $200. Can we all start are seed hunt each fall on ebay. That's the thing that scares the heck out of me. Club involvement may be the answer but as we've seen even the few growers on this website can't seem to dwell within the perimeters of civility as it is. What happens when cash is involved. Death threats? (kidding, I hope)

4/13/2003 11:08:40 AM

Appalachian Mtns.

Sorry Cowpie, my bad.

4/13/2003 11:52:06 AM

Webster, NY

I think there will always be the few who price gouge and a few who are out to take advantage of people, but the majority of people I've met in this hobby are wonderful people. If it came down to giving people a few dollars for some seeds, I can handle that. Let's face it, for the two requests I made on bigpumpkins, I only had to pay $6 and I have plenty of seeds to use and share with friends. That's not counting the ones I got from generous growers. I don't think there will be a big problem.

4/13/2003 11:56:06 AM

Usa

Maybe there is a way for the Dill's to patent the seeds now as they are different than they were 20 years ago. That would solve a lot of problems.

4/13/2003 12:05:47 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

Can a plant be patented?

4/13/2003 12:09:06 PM

Ontario

Of course plants can be patented. That's what this thread is about ;>) You just can't call them Atlantic Giants. You'll have to call yours Southern Crosses or something.

4/13/2003 2:39:44 PM

Tipp City, Ohio

The PVP Act was initially intended for commercial crops. I do not think that in the early 70's when the PVP Act was passed that they envisioned this type of product as a "sport/hobby". Yes, you will see ebay type autions increase with the Atlantic Giant. But, they will most likely be the ones who will take advantage of newbies. For the most part, this sport/hobbie will remain the same in this area.

4/13/2003 8:31:51 PM

[email protected]

Now that I think about this some more, I don't believe there is enough genetic stability in todays AG's to ever produce a patentable cultivar. While distinct varietions in appearance do exist (801 Stelts nice & red vs 815 Checkon almost white as a for instance), it would take one heck of a good patent lawyer to get this by the ever watchful eyes of the PVP critics.
AG's are just so darn big, it probably wouldn't be commercially viable to establish full blown breeding programs to weed out the "sports".
I believe it *can* be done. It just doesn't seem likely that it *will* be.

Steve

4/13/2003 9:43:04 PM