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Caceres, mid west of Spain

If you wanted to plant a new unproven seed, which characteristics will you look for in it?
It is not an easy question.

Don

3/20/2003 2:11:22 PM

Caceres, mid west of Spain

Not an answer but an example:
Two seeds with the opposite cross, from the same grower, same patch and the same year:
-1236 Eaton (723 x 846)and 842 Eaton (846 x 723)Which one to choose? Why?
Same cross, same grower, some patch, different year:
-1178 Kuhn 02 (846 x 723) and 855 Kuhn 01(846 x 723) Which one to choose? Why?

Many seeds with the same cross and different growers and years:
-(846 x 723) The previous ones plus 707 Toftness, 845 Nesbitt, 1038 Emmons, 802 Dill... Which one to choose? Why?

Don

3/20/2003 2:22:26 PM

[email protected]

I really would like to hear the answer to this one Carlos. I asked a similar question a while back but didn't get a clear answer. My gut though tells me that some seeds have "celebrity grower status", while other seeds of the same cross don't.

Can anyone help us rationalize this decision making process?

Steve

3/20/2003 10:55:02 PM

Webster, NY

I could be wrong, but I don't think there is any real difference between any of the seeds listed. They all have great potential. It's the luck of the draw and after that, it is probably what everyone else on this site says. Good soil, good luck and hard work.

3/21/2003 6:24:56 AM

Commack, NY

in a word...."hype"....some people "talk up" seeds, while others dont.

3/21/2003 10:34:46 AM

Caceres, mid west of Spain

Sorry Scott, help me, I didn't find the word hype in the dictionary. Could you find a synonymous?

3/21/2003 11:38:29 AM

Wallingford,CT

publicity, propaganda, buildup, excitement, hard sell

3/21/2003 11:46:42 AM

Utah

Just my thoughts- more of my hunch- deffinatly not science !
dave and scott are right also.

since there is so much genetic variablity - even among seeds with the same cross- i think that that the female parent is more likely to pass along its female traits to the next female... I would look at the pumpkins that are the two parents... the one i liked more, i would pick as the female.
"like more" being defined as what ever your criteria is- weight, weighed light or heavy, color, shape, same geographic location, etc. Whatever is most important or combinations of most inportant, to you.

for the above example - if you want a 846 x 723 but can't decided... look at how many different weights, colors and shapes, came from the 846-
... study each fruit- the 707 Toftness, 845 Nesbitt, 1038 Emmons, 802 Dill ... etc... Pick the one you like the best base on your criteria... and plant that one.
same if you want to consider the reverse cross, follow the same process only switch and look at that female parent.

maybe I'm personifying pumpkins- when i shouldn't be. but it's a way to make a choice when before you didn't know how to decided before?
I think we all make lot of choices like this when we choose which seeds we plant... when we do it - some how it makes since to us or we call it a gut feeling or what ever... but really it is logical and somewhat scientific but we don't realize it. so we don't quantify it into a process for future use or study. maybe we should be.
gordon

3/21/2003 11:51:21 AM

Utah

I guess i should proof read - before i hit "post reply".
sorry for the errors... but you get the idea.

3/21/2003 11:54:22 AM

[email protected]

So in simple terms, the Heaviest Hitters exchange seeds amongst themselves because they know one another (perfectly normal-NOT greedy) & have become friendly. Since they know how to grow, those progeny become the biggest weigh-in's.
The rest of us talk about the "845 so & so" and now everone wants one & it sells at auction for $300.00.
But right down the road is a guy who can't water who's created the same cross that weighed in at 500 lbs. No one hears about the "500 so&so". So for the price of a bubble & a stamp, we can all grow virtually the same seed (& just as likely better) that probably any good "HITTER" could dial up to 1000+Lbs....

Right?

Steve

3/21/2003 12:08:15 PM

Montoursville, PA

Interesting question: How many of the same well known names show up multiple times in the first one hundred pumpkins list. Let's see, twenty people listed five times would do it but that isn't reasonable. Could it be fifteem listed with five fruit and twenty five no accounts who snuck in? With all the good seed one would think the top twelve or fifteen would be there a minimum of five times. Then we need to see what seed it is they are controlling so that only friends and associates could get them. That would certainly give the seed the credit it is due.

As with heavy hitters there must only be a handfull of seed that stand out with a few others mixed in. Someone needs to get this data up and showing for all to see.

3/21/2003 12:48:04 PM

Caceres, mid west of Spain

Let's take the Eaton seeds referred above. Some folks could think this: if you are going for color, plant the 842 (it is 846 for the female side), and if you are going for blocky shape and heaviness, grow the 1236. Some others would prefer the 842 in both cases, because they like as pollinator the biggest producer. I've even read somewhere that the 800 pounders are more likely to produce huge ones than the 1200 pounders. Don't know any reason for that, but I've read it...
Thoughts...

Don

3/21/2003 1:14:27 PM

Frankfurt, Germany

I taked top 100 Pumpkins AND Squashes from AGGC and not distinguished between UOW, EST, DQ or others. This is just the top biggest pumpkins groven to this time. (all years)

Doing some excell flicks it comes out:
100 pumpkins are grown by 62 different people.
38 of the growers had only one pumpkin in the list
13 of the growers succeeded with 2
8 growers have 3 pumpkins each in the list, and
3 growers have 4 pumpkins. (Kirk Mombert, Brett Hester and Geneva Emmons)

but this is from the last 6 years...
lets have a look at the last year:

count

3/21/2003 1:17:16 PM

Frankfurt, Germany

taken 100 haviest pumpkins reported to aggc from 2002.

71 growers growed them.
51 growers have only one fruit in the top 100
13 growers have 2
5 have 3 (Bobier, Handy, Kuhn, LaRue, Needham) and
2 have 4 (Fred Calai and Brett Hester)

for me it looks like there something like 10 Havi Hitter that are making about one third of top Weights.
but this left two third of others growers that are very unlikely just "snuk in". It looks perfectly statistic distributed to me.

3/21/2003 1:34:59 PM

Commack, NY

Steve,
the ony way to prove your theory is to take some arbitrary seed and convince a heavy hitter to give it theyre attention. im still willing to bet that there are alot of less sought after seeds out there that can pop a thousand pounder.

scott

3/21/2003 1:44:08 PM

Frankfurt, Germany

another fact:
looking at the seeds that grown all time top 100:

38 pumpkins have had just one "lucky shot"
6 pumpkins managed to do it twice
(btw, the to above is exactly 50 %)
3 pumpkins had each 3 havy progeny
1 pumkin had 4 (712 Kuhn)
1 had 5 (705 Stelts)
1 had 6 (845 Bobier)
1 had 10 (846 Calai) and
1 had 16 (723 Bobier)

so 41 % pumpkins of the all-time Top 100 has been grown from just 5 different pumpkins.
And the Seeds from Bill Bobiers two pumpkins are responsible for nearly a quarter of the entire top 100.

3/21/2003 1:54:35 PM

[email protected]

INTERESTING.

Now if we only knew who (& where) grew the bottom 90% of all the seeds from all the pumpkins who's progeny have made up the top 10% of all time we might really be on to something. But who ever bothers to track the bottom 90%? Do folks who grew the 845 Bobier report the outcome if all they produced was a 300 lber? And if they did, would anyone bother to document it? And then would the reason even be apparent?

I think the celebrity seeds are probably equal in genetic potential as the same cross non-celebrity seeds. And since the "generic versions" are all I have to grow, I hope that theory holds up.

Since I have both the 707 Toftness & the 845 Nesbitt, all I need now is the discipline (& luck) to plant & care for both in my limited space. LOL

Steve

3/21/2003 2:19:42 PM

Mineral Virginia

more questions that arise would be what happens as the bobier genetics continue to get diluted? Looks to me like the weights actually go down from most of the seed parantage charts from the bigger pumpkins.

Could there be some common technique these growers are using and don't realize it to get theirs to the larger size?

Is there some way to take some other lineage and begin trying to get decent stock out of it?

For those of us that are fanatical, is hand pollination the only controllable regarding genetics? Could splicing seeds, being even more specific beyond simple mass pollen selection (don't know right of what that would be) or something else as exotic be an option?

I'm game to test should we come up with some ideas. We're going to have a shot-gun pattern in variety this year.

3/21/2003 3:11:47 PM