Message Board - BigPumpkins.com

Caceres, mid west of Spain

I believe it is a great stuff. I will use miniplug, endomycorrhizal powder from "plant health care". You can easily find the web site writing those words in google or any similar.

Don

3/8/2003 3:02:47 AM

This is a complicated subject that I have been trying to avoid for fear of writing a small novel on the subject while still not doing it justice. Since I am in the commercial arboriculture & turf industry, I am constantly fielding questions about mycorrhizae. I'll have to do this in parts.

Mycorrhizae ("MYCO" hereafter) are a soil born fungi. When conditions favor their developement, some chorophyl bearing plants enjoy a symbiotic relationship with myco whereby the fungi attaches itself to the higher plant roots. During this relationship, the myco benefits from the elements that green producing plants produce (that fungi cannot) & the higher plant is able to pick up nutrients from the soil that might not otherwise be as available.
When things are good, the roots of the higher plant combined with the myco fungal structure, cover a larger area & therefore can enjoy the benefit of exposure to the larger area.

...to be continued

3/8/2003 9:08:28 AM

The good conditions that favor Myco developemet include moderate/good soil moisture, copious levels of organic matter, proper pH, & other conditions that are generally met by good growing & cultural practices.

Poor conditions include soil compaction, drought, temperature extremes, etc. We can contribute to unfavorable conditions with high rates of high salt fertilizers and soil applied fugicides.

Different strains of Myco will colonize specific plants. It is impossible to grow certain Oaks, Pines, & Beech Trees without the preseance of the correct Myco. A friend of mine taught me this 20 years ago on Pinus sp. He hold propagation patents that are in use by Weyerhauser & International Paper Companies so he should know. He taught me to "borrow" a handful of "duff" from beneath any established White Pine & toss it into the planting hole on all of our landscaping jobs. (we used to moonlight together)
If the established plant didn't have any myco present, it would be fire wood. So there was little liklihood that we would fail. We never lost a Pine.

If by some chance the soils we planted in weren't able to sustain the myco, then the same poor condition would guarantee the loss of the tree. Pretty obvious.

.....to be continued

3/8/2003 11:10:39 AM

Andy W

Western NY

i've tried it before, won't use it again. just didn't see any justifiable results.

pro - could help those with really low phosphorous and very low organic matter, especially in sandy soils.

con - if you're going to use it, do your research and get the good stuff. good stuff cost me about 90 bucks for 3 pounds. wish i had that 90 bucks now.

Andy

3/8/2003 2:31:25 PM

The same conditions that affect Conifer & Deciduous trees would also affect perennial & anual plants. Though the specific myco's (sic) may differ, the environmental & cultural conditions that influence them are the same.

I'll not get into the difference between endo & ecto myco here. It isn't important for our discussion.

I have not yet heard of any testing on cucurbits. And I know of only 3 tree species that benefit from myco. And in those 3 scenarios, the only benefit is to plants being transplanted into very poor soils such as those found in an industrial or natural disaster remediation where ALL of the organic matter has been stripped. Even then, the long term prognosis of the plant isn't good unless a plan is enacted to replace the missing organic matter. Then a one time treatment of myco may help "jump start" the new soil. Sort of like the compost starters that are available. Do nothing & mother nature will still fix the situation anyway.

So as Andy as ponted out, Myco's & pumpkins are probably a waste of money in more than 90% of the situations. They certainly won't hurt. But unless the soils biological condition was already a disaster, there would be no benefit either.

.....continued

3/8/2003 4:14:52 PM

In decending order of priority, the best spent money for soils improvement is in my opinion (& some will disagree):

1.) Water manage properly. Pumpkins love " H2O correctness".
2.) Soil Test before any chemical or natural ferts.
3.) Oxygen however it may be acheived. calcined clay, etc.
4.) Organic amendments (peat, manure, compost, seaweed, etc)
5.) Lime/Sulfur or other pH modifiers as indicated in #1.
6.) The Macro nutrients N,P,K,& Ca. Lotta bang for the buck.
7.) Middle nutrients like Magnesium & Sulfur.
8.) Micronutrients like Iron, Manganese, Zinc, Boron, etc.
but only based on the results of the soil test.
9.) Soil bacteria solutions that may impede root disease
like bacillus subtili & others.
10.)SeaKelp & Fish extracts for their natural auxins/homones
11.)Mycorrhizae if boredom or lottery winnings kick in.

In other words, manage soils with an eye toward the bottom line in the correct order of importance before venturing off into uncharted waters. Correcting poor cultural & environmental conditions is critical before treating with myco or else the myco will only die. And once the corrections are made. it is nearly impossible to prohibit the natural establishment of myco where the need exhists. And that need still isn't even established in cucurbits as far as I know.
Perhaps someone else does.

Steve

3/8/2003 4:30:55 PM

Caceres, mid west of Spain

Andy: did you mix the myco with the starting mixture in the pots?
Don

3/8/2003 4:33:49 PM

Andy W

Western NY

I think i did put a little in with the mix, but i mainly used it in the soil around the base of the plants when i set them out. i also mixed some in with the soil that i used to bury the vines with.

the thing about these fungi is that if you have some good compost that you are adding, or even a good source of old leaves, you are getting plenty of these fungi.

as far as ecto vs. endo. - endo has NO effect on vegetables.

Andy

3/8/2003 6:45:42 PM

Caceres, mid west of Spain

Steve, nice list you wrote done. I like it, but I would change a little the order.
I would go with: 1,4,10,2,5,6,9,11,7,8
What do you mean in the #3?
Don

3/9/2003 2:07:10 AM

Carlos,

Oxygen & other atmospheric gasses are the one thing we can't test for in a soil lab. Yet many soil people recognize that more plant failure is caused by poor soil aeration than shortages of any other nutrient. Perhaps oxygen should have been #1. But failing to add costly amendments in adequate quantities by just tilling will result in the soil recompacying over the course of the growing season.

That list would only be correct on certain soils. But I tried to weigh each item agronomically with a slant towards growing gain resulting from the unit of money spent. In other words, if an action is very cheap but does a lot, it landed high on the list.

Likewise an expensive treatment that causes little gain landed lower.

Steve

3/9/2003 6:56:40 AM

Caceres, mid west of Spain

Interesting.
How can you assure the correct oxigen level in the soil? Besides a correct tillage and in the right moment.

3/9/2003 2:15:42 PM