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Like many growers, I am facing too many choices & would like some opinions.

I like the Calai 846. Good growth, shape, & size. But other pumpkins have been bigger. I'm a soild American. I want both. And I want it to be as uniquely mine as it can be. LOL!!!

582.5 Cramer is a multi-generational selfed Calai 846.
310 Eisenhauer is Calai 846 selfed once.
Would you cross these two? Which one male? Which one female? Or self them again? Why?

845 Nesbitt is 846 Calai x 723 Bobier.
707 Toftness is also 846 Calai x 723 Bobier.
518 Kurkowski is 723 Bobier x 846 Calai
Crossing which 2 of these would do what? Or should I be looking to the first group for crossing potential?

I can grow anything well. Honest. But when it comes to genetic potential I need some help.

Space is limited. Which if any cross would most likely make a big ole honking red/orange pumpkin? A big pumpkin this year would be cool. But a great seed in 2004 would be nice too.

Thanks,
Steve Jepsen

3/5/2003 10:38:34 PM

Puyallup, WA

Well Steve, you have verbalized the dilemma that all knowledgeable growers face this time of the year. What is really frustrating is when your "big name seed" falls on its "face" the last week of July! There is no guarantee that your particular seed has all the right genetics. Remember, there have been some 846's and 845's seeds that have grown shall we say "less than spectactular fruit". Both have grown measly 500 pounders! You say you have an 846
seed.....what is on the inside....a 500 pounder or a 1100 pounder?

3/5/2003 11:35:22 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

Hey Steve, I'm kinda biased ;0) but I would recommend the (f) 310 Eisenhaur x 582 Cramer

3/6/2003 6:54:50 AM

Appalachian Mtns.

OR..self a 1012 papez, 1074 Calai, 947 Patrick...you get the idea.

3/6/2003 6:56:06 AM

Southern Illinois

steve what are your thoughts on this,if you grow more than 4 plants,1092,865,845,914,ok you are going to croos these plants,so the night before the flower opens you cover it up,to make sure the bee will not pollinate,then the next mourning you go out and pick a male flower to pollinate,i have not seen any where that the growers cover the male flower,to keep the pollen being transfer from one male flower to the other,so most are not going to be a pure cross,if that is the way the grower pollinates,may be some growers do cover the male flower that they will use to pollinate the female with,and i like the idea of the 846 self x 846 self,my plans are 801 self x 801.5 stelts==845 self x 845 bobier==1230 self x 1230 daletas==960 rose x 717 mitchell,1236 eaton x 1005 mombert,634.5 kilbert x 841 stucker,634.5 x 1097,i will do a few plants this way just to see what they will do the following year,i think it will be alot of fun trying alot of different ways of crossing,i put in about 7 to 8 hours a day in the patch,i just hope this site will be able to handle all the pictures and info that i will be putting into the growers diary.

3/6/2003 8:53:02 AM

Deer Park, WI

Steve- There is value in those multi-generational selfs. The way to make them more valuble is to self them again. Big surprise coming from me, eh? Seriously tho, if you look thru the records, there are very few multi-generational selfs. More and more growers are seeing the value in these seeds, and would like a more diverse selection of them to choose from for future crosses. Keep the tradition of the 582 Cramer going. Along those lines, I'd self the 310 as well. As for the 723 x 846 crosses, you may want to pollinate with one of the selfed 846's. This follows the idea of a F2 cross, which reinforces the genetics of a parent plant, in this case the 846. I personally chose the 518 Kurkowski, as this is the only one of the three with 935 maternal genetics. And by now most of you know why I lean that way. HOpe this helps!

3/6/2003 8:57:34 AM

Frankfurt, Germany

This things with F1, F2... crosses confusing me a little. I understand that by self/sibb polinating i reduce the number of the ancestors (i.e. two generation selfing reduce the number of great grandparents to 2 instead of 8; three generation of selfing 2 instead of 16; four generations 2 instead of 32... you got the idea) and thereof reduce the number of possible alleles (the variations of a single gen) passing to the next generation - thereof making the children more "predictable" - the differences will be more enviromental than genetically based.

Now, by crossing two genetically very different breads i can count on some "hybrid vigor" - wich happend for examlpe in case of 723, 845, 846 - they all are crosses with reduced number of ancestors on both sides and both sides been very different.

Now for the Question: What is the benefit of selfing such a "hybrid vigor" cross? can one expect that it will perform also as the parent?

3/6/2003 10:10:00 AM

French River,P.E.Island, Canada

Heavy Grower, I think most seasoned growers, if you ask them
will tell you of some method that they use to cover the male flowers also.

My self ,I use to cover them , last 2 or 3 years I
cut them off and take them in the night before , put them in a glass of water with a fan blowing over them 5-6 ft away.

3/6/2003 11:25:43 AM

Garden State Pumpkins

Hmmmm nice point there HG...Never had the problem with one plant usually having coffee waiting for the first ones to open but this year with four plants will cause a bit of dilemma....I would say the males must be sealed also to avoid cross contamination of the pollen. Fresh males are easy to pick out but no way can you run around and get there before the bees...it's amazing how fast they get to you when you've plucked all the open flowers and are holding them in your hand!

3/6/2003 1:00:36 PM

Deer Park, WI

Dichter- Excellent question indeed. If there is truly hybrid vigor in seeds like the 723, 845, etc, then I would expect that a selfed version of these would not perform as well as the parent seed. However, hybrid vigor is not a black and white situation. There are degrees of vigor. How much vigor, if any, the seeds above have is not easily measured. Therefore, any lack in vigor experienced by selfed version of that seed could not be measured either. Without having grown a number of these seeds side by side, its hard to tell how they perform.

3/6/2003 2:52:32 PM

Choctaw, OK

Steve,

The 518 is a good looking seed. Both parents grew fruit that were over 10% heavy i believe. And as joe said, 935 Lloyd maternal genetics...cant go wrong there. The 310 has shown it can produce, tho since it was selfed, you will see some varying results. 310 x 518 might be a cross worth considering....i think a combination of the 310, 518 and 582 would make for some interesting crosses...

Casey

3/6/2003 3:09:07 PM

Caceres, mid west of Spain

845 x 518 and 518 x 845 I would go with, a cross of opposite crossed seeds, if you are lucky this combination can show nice results. Why the 845? is the one with the biggest offspring; why the 518? is the only one with the 723 in the mother side.
Grow'em big.

don

3/6/2003 4:37:33 PM

Tacoma, WA

The operative word in Carlos' post is ....."lucky"! There is no guarantee as to which set of genes is in a particular seed. Recessive genes will show up sooner or later. That is why the 723 will throw "green" every now and then!

Stan

3/6/2003 5:59:49 PM

Long Island,New York

Always protect your male flowers the night before...I use cheescloth.........G

3/6/2003 6:12:59 PM

Indiana

Joze,
the 723 and 845 seeds are not completely hybrid vigor. Their common link goes back to Craven.

Tom Beachy

3/6/2003 8:00:59 PM

[email protected]

Thanks guys. That's a lot to consider but all worthy of thought.

I forgot to mention the 824 Rose which is 712 Kuhn x 846 Calai.

Rick, Don't worry. I will cover the males. A good idea.
Joze, I would like to self the 2 generation Calai = 582 Cramer. But a cross would be nice too. How long do you guys feel the fruit must remain on the vine to insure reasonable seed viability. I know any Pumpkin can fail to produce seeds. But most do if they make it to ??? days?

I appreciate all the thoughtful input.

Steve

PS. Lest anyone who sent seed feels slighted. Please don't. I have another patch now. ;>) Water, security, sun, soil, & automatic irrigation control. Cool huh? Networking pays off again!

3/6/2003 8:46:50 PM

Sequim, WA

If you give the fruit 60 days you should be able to expect viable seed. I have use my wifes old nylons for years to cover male and female flowers the day before pollination is expected, as well as the female afterward. They work great and there's an endless supply of new old ones. As for the selfs, I plan on using the 582 Cramer next year in a genetics patch, it has a date with the 550 VanHoutte 97. We'll see what kind of babies that cross can produce in '05.
Chris

3/7/2003 12:32:53 AM

Choctaw, OK

723 doesnt throw green by the way....not true green, sometimes it can get pretty mottled...pending on what could be mostly on environmental factors, but who knows...

case

3/7/2003 12:52:55 PM

Puyallup, WA

Case,
Perhaps you could enlighten me as to what is "true green"?
Are you saying that the World Record Squash(1064) of Kirk Mombert is not "really green"? :>)

3/7/2003 1:35:14 PM

Choctaw, OK

nope, I dont think so. The 1064 wasnt green to start out with...the 990 Hebb is still the biggest true squash out there. Plus there was another fruit on the same plant that grew on that 723, that was a pumpkin, so, how can you really consider that 1064 to be a squash? i know it was light green on the outside...and I bet the underlying color wasnt a true green...you could still see the pink, salmon, or whatever colors it had. Its like a color phobia or something....ITS A PUMPKIN!!! geeze! Does that green really make much of a difference in weight or anything besides color? Nothing been proven yet so no.....why cant squash and pumpkins be equal and all weighed in one category? Or just realize, that was a pumpkin, but develped light green on the outside later in the season...its still a pumpkin, it isnt grass/dark/grey green my friend...which is a true squash.

I hope this doesnt stir anything up, we have fought enough over this....just my opinion. Thats my answer for you Stan.

casey

3/7/2003 3:17:28 PM

Puyallup, WA

My 723 last year had a "green" fruit that I cut off. True, it was "light green".....but still green! Has anyone else seen "green" on a 723?

3/7/2003 6:38:32 PM