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Chesterfield, MO

I have a couple of questions about patch preparation in the Spring for anyone who might be able to answer. I don't know if this will help anyone but my recent soil tests show that I have a PH of 7.2, organic matter of 2.8%, and a soil texture of "silt loam" (22.5% Sand, 57.5% Silt, and 20% Clay).

1. When deciding plant patterns is it more important to have more main vine length, side vine length, or just overall plant size?

2. Is it best to ammend the soil with composted leaves and yard waste etc., manure, or worm castings? How long should the manure or compost be aged so that it doesnt burn the plants before being tilled in in the spring? How much of each should be used in a 1100 sq. foot patch?

3. My patch has a spot that is lower than the rest of the garden ana yard and when it rains that area constantly has a couple of flooded spots. Do any of the experts have any ideas about how to solve this problem?

Thanks in advance to anyone who replies!!! Good Luck to all in '03!

Steve

3/5/2003 1:07:54 PM

Western Pa.

Masta,

You need to build up your organic matter content, some strive for levels of 15-20%.

1. I grow my mains out about 30' before terminating and burying. You will find that you will have more side vines than necessary, and will need to prune. I think most growers would agree, you should have at least 500 sq. ' of plant, more if you have room.

2. All the above mentioned are recommended. I think manure and compost should be aged at least a year. Cover with black plastic in summer so heat will destroy some of the weed seeds. I'd use as much as you can get, at least 4-5" of aged manure.

3. If you can avoid planting in the low spot, please do. You want an area that gets a lot of sunlight. If you can't move the patch, I'd build a raised bed, and truck in more rich soil. Hope this helps.

kilr

3/5/2003 1:36:03 PM

syracuse, ny

if i can help at all, just for a start:

7.2 is good, 6.8 is perfect, but by trying to change it now you might over-compensate...i would leave the pH alone, if possible!

i'm thinking that if you were to incorporate some AGED manure, that has been around for at least since last October
or older, that would boost your organic content ( i think the goal is higher the better, like 10% is pretty good) and would also improve your soil texture--i'm gonna guess that
silt and clay are pretty dense, lotta surface area, which will come into play if you EVER need to add lime or sulfur, at this time that's not a concern. but it might play into oother amendments recommended by other growers....

for reference, don't let your side vines (secondaries)
get longer than 16 feet.....i forget where, no, i remember where, on a site called Henry's Hole---go there and read up
on Henry's Rules On....there's an article in there about pruning and vine management...nutshell?? the vine begins supporting itself, not the plant anymore, when it gets past 17 feet, that's why i said 16 feet for some give n' take!

3/5/2003 1:58:27 PM

syracuse, ny

uhhh, my plants are allowed 45 feet TOTAL length for the main vine...from the stump to the tip--after that they are allowed to have the last leaf that grew, which usually gets pretty big! so 45 feet max X 32 feet max...perhaps longer as long as you chop them at the boundary! that's my equation, growing strictly in a Christmas tree shape...
NO tertiaries are EVER allowed to grow...nope, none!
i think if you reach a boundary, the other unreached boundary can be filled in...color inside the lines, as any extra growth COULD be going into your fruit!

as far as the mentioned amendments, all that stuff is
fabulous! i would have NO problem with putting down
2-250 bushel loads of cow manure in the fall for your 1100 sq. ft.---i just halved my own back patch's load! double that would be even better, i'm gonna regret not tilling it in last fall, too...
everything should be composted, or it will suck away the nutrients that SHOULD go to your plants!

flooding? i know nothing about drainage tile, but it SOUNDS like something that will work.....or better yet, build-up those flooding areas a foot higher than the rest of your patch, for compaction will show up again next year!

not an expert, but other peoples' problems make mine seem small---i hope i've helped! pumpkinpal

3/5/2003 1:58:41 PM

Bemidji, MN

Steve, I believe overall plant size is of more impotant than MV or secondaries. Though, many growers are starting to lean towards smaller plots. I generally leave MV 6' past fruit set myself. On the manure, if it's green, generally 6 weeks is needed for it to break down enough to get past burn stage. Personally, I add 6" of manure/compost on my plot each fall. this will help your organic matter(mine was 26% last year), and eventually help lower your PH. I to also have a low spot. I'm slowly building it up each year with compost added, in 2 years it'll be where I want it. To help drainage, I trenched the length of plot(only need a few inches to do the job) to keep water flowing away from plot.Last year this worked great. I've also buried some perferated drain pipe along the one side, this also lets water flow away from plot. Steve

3/5/2003 2:01:19 PM

syracuse, ny

yeah, what HE said!

3/5/2003 2:02:29 PM

In the shade - PDX, OR

Thanks Pal - That is some good info you have shared with us.


Ceis

3/5/2003 8:16:31 PM

[email protected]

Steve,

You've already gotten some great advice here. There is little to add.
But your pH is just a little high. If you are also even remotely low in sulfur, go ahead & add some. Just a little. 3 lbs per 100 is a lot.

By all means, add as much organic material that you can get. You can't use too much unless it is too fresh. As you till it in, rake the loosened soil into the low area. Soils do percolate. Some perc better than others. But low spots collect more water at a greater rate than level areas.
If correcting the grade doesn't correct the drainage, there are plenty of other things we can try that will work.

Steve

3/5/2003 10:20:40 PM

Chesterfield, MO

I really appreciate all of your help guys...thanks!

3/5/2003 10:31:18 PM

[email protected]

AUGHHHH!!!

TYPO!!!!

SULFUR SHOULD BE 3 POUNDS PER 0NE THOUSAND! Not per 100, as sloppily typed.

3/6/2003 5:28:42 AM