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Appalachian Mtns.

I'd like to hear what kind of clock times growers have achieved in germination? Cotelydon emergence after planting?
The methods used, with the times, would also be helpful information.

3/3/2003 7:40:43 PM

syracuse, ny

please see two posts previous--there would be my suggestion
for anyone starting seeds--not very detailed, but the basics
are the easiest! i can't wait to practice what i preach! 'pal

3/3/2003 7:57:12 PM

South Bend, IN

3 of 3 seedlings up in 4 days with NO seed preparation or soaking. Put them in peat pots with seed starter mix into a propagator at about 90 degrees and they shot out of the dirt in 4 days. Very satisfied beginner here.

3/3/2003 8:01:21 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

Hmm..how long to soak, generally? What year seed mega?

3/3/2003 8:23:24 PM

South Bend, IN

These were 'junk' AG seeds I got from veseys to use solely for practicing germination before I use the 'good' ones. The only thing I'll change for the good ones is to use that captan stuff to prevent rot.

3/3/2003 8:30:17 PM

Amherst, WI

I've been doing some practicing with my "germinator" table. The earliest the seeds pop the soil is 4 days. Some take 6 or 7 days to pop.

3/3/2003 8:43:17 PM

[email protected]

Kyle,
Were those seeds the ones treated with the gibber's? Don't be afraid to experiment with different GA# rates this time of year. My test protocol calls for one test pot to be treated at 4x.
I've soaked over night or about 8 hours, though I don't feel that a large seed like a pumpkin would benefit from a long soak as this. But I could be wrong.
Others have more experience with pre-germinating pumpkins than I do that's for sure. I always direct seeded til this year.
Steve

3/3/2003 8:45:18 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

Steve,
Yep, I'm experimenting with the PGR. I got one to germinate at 34 hours and emergence from the soil at 90 hours. I'm using my crappy 2000 seed that looks bad and the untreated seed won't even germinate. Therefore I have nothing to compare to.
I have two advanced start seed, soaked in PGR for 5 hours, on top of the monitor now.
In a hydrogen peroxide soak x 12 hours I again only got one germination and it was treated, nothing to compare it to. It's in a pot now with some lamp heat.
I've used the PGR at 2/100 ml, 5/100 ml, and .12 ml currently.

3/3/2003 9:19:30 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

BTW...the seed that emerged at 90 hours was unheated except for some day sunlight from the picture window, spotty at best.

3/3/2003 9:22:13 PM

[email protected]

Do you have enough "play seeds" to do 3 pots? Do one with no GA3. Do one at the labeled rate. Do one at 2x. Keep them all at 90* to avoid any temperature related discrepencies.

I've got to start my germ tests. Been too busy outfitting fishing & boating aparatus!LOL!

Come on Spring!!!!!

Steve

3/3/2003 9:31:11 PM

[email protected]

Oh yeah,
Put multiple seeds in each pot. Like 3 maybe. Let them grow for a week or two & see how the GA impacts early growth.

3/3/2003 9:33:16 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

Steve,
Well, almost out of play seed. I have a post looking for some but all I've found is 1990 seed (good) but still with very high germination rates anyway sooooo. I'll get a propogation mat and try with what else I can scrounge up.
There is no lableled rate for pumpkin seed...cotton, corn, peanuts, etc. only. I'm shootin' in the dark on that aspect. Any suggestions?

3/3/2003 9:50:26 PM

Connecticut

I have been practicing different germination processes myself. The other night i took four seeds 1 I peeled the coat soaked in fish/seeweed mixture for two hours and planted in pot 1 inch down. 1 I filed and planted strait into the ground 1 inch down. the other two I filed soaked overnight in fish/seeweed mixture and planted 1 flat 1 inch down and one strait 1 inch down.All were put on heating mat at approx 85 degrees. All four popped through the ground at exactly the same time 93 hours later. the plant that is looking the best, shape and darkest green, is the one that I planted with no soaking. all seeds were from same pumpkin. anyone have any thoughts on this.This is my first year but it tends to make me think were overthinking this germination thing. would appreciate your opinions. thanks

3/3/2003 10:32:29 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

hmmmm, interesting.

3/3/2003 10:59:07 PM

Usa

What is PGR and gibber's. Are they hormones, rooting stimulators, or what?
I have used hydrogen soaks for other hard shelled seeds. I didn't think about using them for pumpkin seeds.
I can't wait to get my books.

3/4/2003 12:03:43 AM

syracuse, ny

well, apparently this is the hang-out for germinators!
so i cut n' pasted my post over to here!::::

1. regular-strength Captan, fungicide...in the water you use to initially create your starter seed mix with...wear doctors' rubber gloves and eye protection!

2. peat pot, filled with the mix, NOT TOO WET! if it's dark, it's wet enough....stick yer seed in and put Saran wrap over top of it to keep it from drying out.....secure with a rubber band...

3. keep whole thing at 90 Degrees F. constantly...yes, 90!

3.a. you will have a nice little sprout in 72 hours....usually.

app. a. it should be a given to use fungicide in your start-water, especially when starting-up your 845, 801.5, 935...!
good luck 'pal

i would like to find out the brand name(s) of some gibberellic acid products, for the benefit of all to use and discover, if you would, please tell us here...T.Hanks

3/4/2003 1:30:47 AM

Caceres, mid west of Spain

You are right 'pal, I'll do the same, LOL:
I let the seeds 10 hours in 3% usual commercial hidrogen peroxide, after filing the edges, and then to the pots like Pumpkinpal said, no paper towel needed either recommended.
The hidrogen peroxide has two important effects: it desinfects the seed surface (and the interior I believe better than captan or other powder fungicides) as well as provides a good source of oxigen to the seed tissues; is like soaking the seeds in water with air bubbles working all the time, what is nice for the germination.
Don

3/4/2003 2:05:53 AM

porterville,california usa

last year i put 6 seeds directly into pots filled with potting mix,added water until they ran over, then put them in my wifes oven with just the pilot on. 20-22 hours later all 6 were 1" high! this year i did the exact same thing to 12 seeds.41/2 DAYS later i finally got 2 up and then another and another. i`m averaging one per day now. i guess it depends upon the seed as to how fast they germinate. i`m presently using an incubation box and it hasn`t seemed to speed things up any.i can`t seem to find a consistant germination rate, if there is one. just my nickels worth.

3/4/2003 2:49:12 AM

Sydney, Australia

I used hydrogen peroxide 3% solution straight out of the bottle. I filed the seeds and submerged them in the solution for about 6 hours, Then planted them in 1 litre icecream containers. They were placed in a germinator box at a constant 88F. I had seeds sprout in 3-5 days and very healthy. Hope that helps......Ben

3/4/2003 5:18:56 AM

[email protected]

The gibberellin compound that Kyle is using is Microflo's PGR IV. Not found in retail establishemnts. Costs around $300 per gallon as I recall. I know a little about this product & his intent because I sent it to him. My company used to sell this material & as he indicates, it was never labeled for use on pumpkins. It is still widely used in agriculture on other crops including cucumbers.

The intent here is to germinate some very old seed that might otherwise not pop. GA3 is quite helpful for this purpose.

PGRIV is a unique formulation that also contains other auxins, etc, that will aid seedling vigor & is labeled for use on several stages of cucmber growth development. As a seed treatment, it is only labeled commercially for some notoriously stubbon crops like peanuts & cotton. The maufacturer obtains & maitains the label for economic reasons. There is no reason to seek label language (and pay for the R&D) for practices that commercial growers won't use. It's not that the product won't work. It's sheerly economic reasoning.

It is easy to slam compounds such as this. But choose words wisely. The elements found in PGR IV are the same ones that make Kelp Extracts work. No hormone in Kelp & Fish emulsions, & there'd be no reasdon to use them. They just wouldn't do much of anything. GA3 is also naturally ocurring in many seeds, including pumpkins.

White seedless grapes would abort early without GA3 applications since fruit without seeds is therefore without GA3. The plant recognizes this signal, so it throws or aborts the fruit. Growing seedless fruit is, to the plant's way of genetic "thinking", an incredible waste of time & resources.

continued

3/4/2003 5:55:07 AM

[email protected]

Besides getting stubborn seeds to germinate, the live crop benefits of using PGR IV include earlier fruit set, fewer aborts, & in theory, the grower's ability to enhance growth, & hasten maturation. These effects are not in question. They are fact. We only seek to establish the best timing for Pumpkins. To that end, we must call on our guts & the labeled data that pertains to cucmbers. I have consulted some of the researchers. The data is full of holes so far, so the cucmber protocol is my own persoanl selection for live plant testing.

Pumpkins want to complete their growth in 120-150 days (give or take a few). If we start them early, then chances are the fruit will stop growing once it is genetically mature. This then dispels the advantage of starting early. All we get is a mature stalled fruit sitting in the patch some time in September, waiting for a weigh off. I hold the theory that hormones such as PGRIV can be used to keep the fruit/plant from maturing at it's genetically engineered date. Lengthening the season by delaying maturation could result in some very health weight gains by tricking the plant into thinking it is still "young".

These aren't new ideas. Similar protocols have been used experimentally & in actual produce production for years. But pumpkin crops aren't deemed worthy of such research at the collegiate level for financial reasons. So what we learn from these experiments must therefore obtained more or less on our own.

This post will (I hope) stir some debate. So please, fire away!

Steve

3/4/2003 5:55:19 AM

Appalachian Mtns.

Yep..what Steve said :0)
I'm getting mixed results but then again I'm using the same seed for all my tests, and none of the untreated will germinate so I have no control to compare to.
I need some pre-1995 seed that hasn't been properly cared for to give the PGR validity. My first 2 plants looked very strong but again, no control to compare to.
Any older seed that's not sufficient for planting or swapping would be appreciated?
And I do plan to use the PGR as a foliar spray as well. Like Steve said, it may lengthen my growing period..which is helpful in the South.

3/4/2003 6:55:29 AM

Appalachian Mtns.

BTW..I'll also try your method as well pumpkinpal, thanks for the information!
And in my tests the 3%, or slightly stronger, HP does a very good job as many of you guys know.

3/4/2003 6:58:42 AM

Appalachian Mtns.

One more note..I'm gettting PGR treated seed to emerge from the soil in 3-4 days, *unheated*.

3/4/2003 7:00:48 AM

[email protected]

OK, I'm off to some enhanced Sales training today (yuk). No plant science info to be had at this one. But I'd like to leave this post with one additional thought.

Some who have "experimented" with GA3 have complained of it's "herbicide like effect". Where this has been noted, rate is the likely culprit. 2,4-d is a growth regulator herbicide. It is more than possible (indeed accepted & common) that we can manipulate the growth of a plant right into killing itself. The most common example is the popular use of selective phenoxy type lawn herbicides such as "Trimec", Weed-B-Gone", etc....

Controlling rate is easy to do. For highly concentrated materials such as PGR IV, I recommend the use of medical syringes that are calibrated to the nearest 2cc (2mls). Most hold less than 2 oz or 60cc's.

Timing & rate variations to coincide with desired growth stage conditions is where I find the most credible concern & is proper fodder for debate. I hope. ;-)

Steve

Steve

3/4/2003 7:33:13 AM

Appalachian Mtns.

My lab grade pipettes measure in 100th's of a milliter. I can pipette down to 0.001 of a milliter. My latest solution is just over 10% (0.12) of 1 milliter in 1/3 cup distilled water, for soaking.

3/4/2003 4:02:15 PM

Utah

Steve-
If I was trying to extend the growth phase of a pumpkin
any thoughts on how I should use PGRIV ?

how would PGRIV applied to live crops, foliar feeding ?
paint it onto the small fruit ? again when ?
any idea of how much to use and at what stage of plant
development ?
Might it prevent seeds from maturing in ones pumpkin ?

I know you don't have specific answers but at least you
have a idea of what might work... I wouldn't even be
able to know where to start at a guess for timing & rate
variations...
Gordon

3/4/2003 4:53:23 PM

Utah

on 2nd thought... maybe we should drop the whole thread... who can afford $300/gal for the stuff anyway. I have a hard time as it is justifing seaweed fert.

3/4/2003 4:57:00 PM

Utah

southern-
once I didn't get germination after 10 days in my warm window sill so i set my those pea pots aside in the garage.
2 weeks later a few more of them had come up... they were
dry and almost dead... not sure when the came up ...but it taught me not to give up on any of them so easily.

3/4/2003 4:59:20 PM

Southern Illinois

i have used pgr for a few years,i spray 3 oz/acre broadcast when my plants show first sign of running,then i spray again 2 some time 3 weeks later,then if i use it own my trans plants,i put 1 tbl per gallon of water,then soak them in the solution then plant,i have used the 1 tbl per gallon, in a big bowl soak my seed over night,then drain the next mourning,then set in a dark place for a few days then plant,if i am in a hurry i soak over night then plant the seed the next day,this year in my 1,000 pound patch, i will spray 6 oz per 1 acre pre emergence,then i will spray again at 3 leaf stage,3 oz per acre,then i will spray again at first bloom,2 oz per acre,then i will spray 2 oz per acre,every 3 weeks,but i will only use on a few plants in my 1,200 pound super human patch,i have 3 different growth reg,i will be using this year.if any one is growing other vegetables like peppers,cabbage,broccoli,cauliflower,sweet corn,tomatoes,i can give you the info to use on any of these crops,pgr iv.

3/4/2003 5:35:12 PM

Caceres, mid west of Spain

Impressive, I would say.

3/4/2003 6:07:04 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

It's good stuff Carlos, commercial grade. Here's a link to the labeling and directions for use, if anyone's interested..http://www.cdms.net/ldat/ld1IK000.pdf

3/4/2003 7:36:45 PM

Appalachian Mtns.

There are other similar type products out there that are far less expensive too, this brand (Microflo) is for commercial use if I understand correctly. Do a Google for plant growth regulators, gibberellic acid, indolebutyric acid, plant hormones, etc.

3/4/2003 7:40:37 PM

Usa

http://www.cdms.net/ldat/ld1IK000.pdf where can you purchase it?

3/4/2003 8:28:09 PM

[email protected]

g1t,
Check the link that Kyle just put up. The cucumber rate schedule is on that label.

I think what PPal indicated is worth reinforcing. Growth regulating hormones aren't touted as posessing antifungal properties. So after a good soak, I would HIGHLY recommend the Captan treatment he prescribed. There are some other good fungicides out there for the "damping off" of seedlings also. Captan will someday lose it's registration. When it does, items such as Subdue (known as Apron for seed treatment) will gain in popularity. Subdue is already known to commercial growers as a superior molecule. And at over $500 per gallon it better be. I'm confident though that by that time, some creative repackaging will bring the price around for us common folk!
Steve

3/4/2003 8:30:05 PM

[email protected]

Az,

It's been a while since we sold this material. But I still do business with the folks at Microflo. I'll try to contact them & find out who's selling it. We didn't drop PGR IV because it didn't work well. It just didn't make sense for our customers. (Pro Turf & Golf Courses) I'm down to less than a pint, which should last a couple seasons. Then I'll need more too.

Steve

3/4/2003 8:34:26 PM

Southern Illinois

micro flo company 901- 432-5100 800-451-8461,fax 901-432-5100,www.microflowcompany.com if you want to call and find where you can purchase.

3/4/2003 9:05:12 PM

Usa

Thanks for the information AZ

3/5/2003 12:11:10 AM

Decatur, IL

Sorry, but microflo's web address is microflocompany.com
Charlie

3/5/2003 11:48:27 PM

[email protected]

Pete Sollazzo is MicroFlo's northeast regional sales guy. He responded to my email inquiry. I've asked for some published trial data, but so far he assures me that AG growers should expect the following:

Increased root developement, better flower formation & fruit set, & better fruit retention.

He listed the following distributors:

UAP Northeast...588-226-2700
Agriliance......315-946-5232
Helena..........315-789-4450

A real who's who list of MY competitors. LOL! Oh well.

Steve

3/6/2003 8:34:47 AM

[email protected]

I think Rick's (HEAVY GROWER) spray program is perfect.
g1t asked how to apply. Rick is treating foliage, stems, fruit, & soil. That's the way. 40-60 gallons water per acre should do. That's the equivalent of 1-1.5 gallons of water per 1000 sq. ft.

Steve

3/6/2003 8:47:59 AM