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Key West, FL

Fellow Growers,

Just a reminder that the PGVG second annual seed auction is going on now at www.pgvg.org . The silent auction at www.pgvg.org will be going on until February 14th. Then on that Saturday and Sunday night, the 15th and 16th, we will be holding a live auction here at www.Bigpumpkins.com to finish up the bidding on these seeds. We have made provisions for the growers who may not be able to be part of the live auction for one reason or another. If you can not take part in the live auction, email or phone in your maximum bid and the lot number by 9:00 PM Pacific Standard time Friday February 14, 2003, and we will make the bid for you. Email bids to [email protected] and [email protected] phone bids into Jack La Rue at 360-264-4904 or Jim Sherwood at 503-651-3530.
Thanks,
Ben

2/8/2003 12:32:48 PM

syracuse, ny

i may be out of line here, but if someone can't BE THERE for an auction, that should be just TOO DARN BAD!
i am deterred from the proceedings, unless someone can tell me a good enough explanation for handing one's obligation to BE THERE over to anyone else....what's the sense of us taking the time to BE THERE, bidding and getting our hopes up, when someone else might have already outbid us, unbeknownst to us---not even sure i wanna know....
Sorry, I'm sure it wouldn't be allowed if it weren't a necessity...

2/10/2003 1:08:00 AM

Montoursville, PA

The first step leading to the suspect of crooked dealings is to institute multiple ways of bidding. What has been created here in good faith is a multiple way of bidding.

Not a singl national auction house has excaped the urge and opportunity to cheat with the use of multiple bidding. The only way to assure a long standing fair auction is to keep the auctions absolute.

Absoulute is pure and simple. The item will be sold to the highest attending proper bidder on the day of the sale. There should be no reserves, no withdrawn bids, no house numbers to crate a false reserve that looks like a bid and no preset starting bids which is a form of reserve.

Sorry guys but someone needs to attended to this business before a major rumble arrives for those hoping to raise a few bucks and have fun with the rising value of AG seed.

Shilling will exist without your inhouse potential for difficulty. Shilling is where two or more agree not to let the item being sold be sold for less than a certain dollar. The second or several shillers then will bid the item to a sold level and pay the auction commission to do this. It is impossible to prove, in most cases.

To make matters worse substituted product will eventually take down auctions as personal profit motive will cause bad seed to be sold as well known seed. This would hopefully be safe for the moment as clubs or associations create the auction.

Independant sellers with built solid reputations seems the way the sales of seed should go. The price should be what the free market will pay. If an individual misrepresents to any large degree it will be suspected within a year and pretty well sorted out within two growing seasons. That will be fair control while word of mouth and other published items may box up and finish a bad actor. I see no way to identify good product in this market. Trust must prevail.

2/10/2003 8:51:03 AM

canal winchester ohio

I see no problem with the way the auction has been proposed. If I like a certain seed I just call Jack & tell him what Lot# I like & I don't want to go over $50, if it goes over 50 I lose. And about someone outbidding you & you don't even know it. Say I know my max is $50 & I'm "inhouse" at the auction, well you also show up "inhouse" & know all you have to spend on that lot is $35...you've already been outbid & you don't even know it.
(....Absoulute is pure and simple. The item will be sold to the highest attending proper bidder on the day of the sale...)Thats not always true, even at a "absolute" auction you can have fake bidders to drive up a price if you see that someone really wants that item ( or seed).
So what I'm saying is let'em bid because nothing & I mean nothing is ever truly fair.........Paul

2/10/2003 9:32:47 AM

Montoursville, PA

People who leave bids are almost always well known customers of the auction. In this case I will assume it is Paul being the trusted friend of Jacks and visa versa. OK a night of auction bid lands on $50.00 and the auctioneer should take it and say sold to the highest bidder. He already knows your highest bid is $50.00. More often than naught however the auctioneer will sight the left bid "yours Paul" causing the the attending bidder to go higher or lose whichever may be the decision. In your examle all kinds of games are played and I think you know it. Favoring a left bid, taking one at all is subject to careful observation. Quite apparent no monkey business can take place, in these respects, if there is only one way, to bid. Save of course what I mentioned about shilling just two paragraphs below where you found offending claims.

Please note that you could have a friend place your bid for you the night of the auction. That way we can see your hand even if we do not know it is yours.

This is not now and was not initally a suggestion that this auction is less than properly run. It was a strong suggestion that it will be in time just like you know nine out of ten other auctions already are questionable and skinners of the unknowing.

2/10/2003 11:49:59 AM

syracuse, ny

if i have offended anyone, and i may have by all the posts presented here, i am really sorry and i need to learn a lot
more about the way the auctions are run! a co-worker of mine is a virtual gold mine of such information; he explained to me what i didn't yet know....
and although i'm no further ahead than when i typed my post,
at least when i read the above posts, i realize there's a lot more to it than meets my half-opened eyes!

standing corrected, pumpkinpal.

2/10/2003 1:21:11 PM

canal winchester ohio

I was just trying to make a point. I've never participated in any auction ( I do go in & watch though just for fun).
And I probably never will, not because I don't care for them. But because I don't have 2 nickels to rub together most of the time :)

2/10/2003 1:29:57 PM

canal winchester ohio

And Doc, as for games being played & me knowing it , I can honestly say I don't know. Don't always be looking for trickery & slight of hand as it doesn't present a good light on things.
Those who are always on the prowl of those who deceive, may in turn be trying to deceive themselves.

2/10/2003 1:39:08 PM

Montoursville, PA

No actually Paul for twenty years I had to make my living in the auction halls of America. You better believe I had to learn and learn fast to survive. I have likely been in every stinky den of fear within three hundred miles of my home. One wins at auction by knowing the rules and defeating the crooks with knowlege.

What I see here this spring are three or four groups of fine guys begining an auction of sorts. I would be willing to bet my last buck that 100% of what we have see is the red necker' square deal.

Auctions are dens of horrible tricky acts feeding on those who do not know and that applies to some degree to all, 100%, of historical auctions that exist. It is no place for amateurs to play.

I tried very much to indicate that these early seed auctions appear to be very much on the up and up. My intent was to create discusson and cause serious thought as to how the various auctions here could avoid possible major problems.

Once any group reaches hundreds and thousands a term called average appears. This can not be avoided. Within, an average anything, lives all of the good and bad of everything. No group, not even the leaders of the church, have been able to defeat the elements of average.

If I offended you Paul I am indeed sorry. As one of the leaders we look up to I hope you would know something and kick a little butt to keep that which you can influence in line. I do of course agree that you have every right to disagree with me or anyone else.

Goodness I certainly was not offended. Discussion has been generated and I do believe to an acceptable level. Some good may in fact come from the surfacing of these facts and a few more I did not think applied but may in the future.

2/10/2003 3:26:06 PM

canal winchester ohio

Nope not offended at all, besides the seed auctions the only auctions I've ever been to is local auctions at county fairs ( cattle,hogs & sheep). I'm glad you didn't take that the wrong way, I had a grin while writing it ( I was playing a little) but without being able to speak face to face sometimes things get taken out of text.
And while I have your attention I have 1 question, do you make 2 types of wine? I prefer white wine, just incase I win. :)
Good luck in the coming season & with Tony coaching you I would be willing to bet your season will go well....

2/10/2003 3:49:40 PM

Montoursville, PA

Paul I have one bottle left and one only. Therefore since it is red you may have to give it up to a friend. ]:0)
..but you have to win it first. :)

2/10/2003 3:59:35 PM

Key West, FL

I will bring this issue up to Jack and Jim, and then I will get back to you guys. Ben

2/10/2003 5:48:38 PM

Key West, FL

The rule will stand as is. We will only bid $1 more on a final live bid under $50. For example:
Final live bid $40.
Phoned in bid maximum was $45.
We bid $41

Final price, $41 to silent bidder.

But if the live price is over $50 there will be $5 increments.
Final live bid was $200
Phoned in bid was maximum of $250
Bid increment was $5

Final price - $205 to silent bidder

I hope that answer your question.
Ben

2/10/2003 9:18:33 PM

Montoursville, PA

Ben....the words I posted are for consideration in the future. I expected no immediate action nor did I indicate any immediate concern. Down the road maybe. Depends on how things develop. I would be happy to discuss openly without fault anything I have said. And honestly I believe it would be better done by E so as not to excite rioting emotional blasts by half knowing posters just caught up in a point not even the purpose of the chat.

2/10/2003 11:07:50 PM

[email protected]

Knowing almost nothing about auctions isn't going to stop me from shedding an opinion on this.
I wouldn't take part in an auction like this. If an absentee bid has been accepted, it is my humble opinion that the bidding should start at that point. I see no reason to bid up from zero in the hopes of reaching the silent bidders bid. Unless, when the last call is anounced, the auctioneer indicates that the phone bid is leading. At this point, all concerned bidders would then be free to continue to advance the bidding. If I understand this correctly, the leading live bidder is under the impression that their bid is going to win. In the interest of that party & the seller, why not take the chance to advance the selling price? The phoned in absentee bidder should likewise be offered the opportunity to have an alternate bidder on the phone during the auction.

Just my opinion, but mark my words, I'm not the only person who wouldn't engage in an auction like this. I've seen it happen before & simply choose to not partake.

Steve

2/11/2003 6:45:27 AM

Mulino, Oregon

Tremor, thank you for your concern.Our intent is not to offend or deceive anyone. The absentee bids are going to work just like any other auction. We will simply be bidding in their place right along with the auction. There will be no deception. It is no different than if your wife told you, "you can't spend more than $100 on that seed". So in a sense you are a 'surrogate' bidder for your wife, knowing you can't go over $100 for the seed. Knowing that would you start your bidding at $100? I think not. Your hope would be to get the seed for $75 and then spend the rest on her for Valentines Day! or a round of golf. Another scenerio would be if your buddy wanted to buy a seed but was going to be away. He gives you $50 to bid on it for him, what's the difference? Please email me privately if this doesn't make any sense. Jim

2/11/2003 9:40:09 AM

syracuse, ny

I can only HOPE that if i had never commented, waaaayyyy at the top of this discussion, most of the other posts that are here would still have been here today, without mine being the first in line! a very unfavorable way of finding
out, but i have learned much from coming back and reading the typings of those far more knowledgeable in this area
than i ever will be---so in a roundabout kind of way,
yet as sincere as can be, thank you all! and, of course,
y'all have a great auction at that!!!

2/12/2003 6:27:51 PM