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Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

I've been trying to get my head around this hybrid vigour thing and have come up with the following question.

If you cross 2 pure strains you get an F1 hybrid and they all look alike.

If you self pollinate the F1 hybrid the mathematical prediction is that 25% of the offspring will resemble the female grandparent,50% will resemble the F1 hybrid and the other 25% resemble the male grandparent.

What happens to this prediction when you cross 2 strains that are not pure?

And does this mean that one of my 840 Desrosiers seeds could really be a 723 Bobier (male grandparent) in disguise?

Have you grown a selfed cross if so did it look like the parent?

12/20/2002 5:39:45 AM

Garden State Pumpkins

Pappy I'll never get this stuff! AXC at what point back does the DIll seed become pure! When can someone say that the Atlantic Giant is officially a sub-species, if thats the right term, of Maxima onto itself? From some point thay all should have a dill seed as genetic lineage! signed Lost in the Pumpkin genetic Patch!

12/20/2002 8:32:58 AM

Stafford, Virginia

I dealt with that issue last year! The key to your comment was "mathematically". Purely mathematically you're right but from a nature point of view everything from mutant to sterile is possible. Same plant will produce pumpkins with very different characteristics and then all the seeds within just one of those pumpkins will pass on different charactistics/variations as well. With all the generations involved it seemed that gardening skill and luck were equally important to good seed stock. Just an opinion.

12/20/2002 10:27:38 AM

Montoursville, PA

Well said JohnNancy! The above tid bit has to be from Nancy because no male would be that rational. :)

In theory growing in water would be absolute control but I have yet to eat anything that tasted good grown in those greenhouses.

For some strange reason all of the common beliefs expressed here say any AG seed has the genetics to grow a biggie. If that is basically true then it comes down, to soil management and feeding, in so far as we understand it today.

As a good gardener with maybe better than average experience I see common demonation factors here. We all can read the diarys and posts. We all large or small growers can
mimic our leaders.

That brings it back to square one. A good patch condition, a good seed and good management plus luck. Luck however does not appear where common practices are excluded...very often.

This year my patch is right. This year my feeding will fall within common practices of you all. If I do not grow a nice one this year it will be fully something I did not do or control based on common practice.

Oh my yes! I am saying a first year grower with condition and luck could, in fact be your next leader.

As a first year grower using your common advise I expect no less than the best I can do or the best we can do sharing the common practices. If I get a nice one in the higher weigh categories it will have been more you than I that brought it into my patch. Thank you all.

Have a nice holiday and dream up a biggie for 2003.

12/20/2002 12:08:32 PM

In the shade - PDX, OR

Chuck - I'm with you - all lost in the genetic pumpkin patch. I think this will be my next "level" to get to.

Too many things still to consider regarding my growing technique.

Time constraints are definately a factor here.

12/20/2002 12:36:37 PM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

What I'm interested in here is how to go about creating a pumpkin seed with hybrid vigour as suggested by Joe Ailts.

I have some of the good seeds self pollinated and wondered how many plants of one these you would have to grow to find one that was a good example of the original(805 Pukos in the example I used.

12/20/2002 1:17:45 PM

Deer Park, WI

AXC- If you want to create a seed that that may exhibit hybrid vigor, you need to select to differing lines of seeds and self the heck out of them for many many generations. The best advice I can give is to check out the AGGC for seeds that have been selfed for 3+ generations and continue on that trail. Some of the willemse seeds would be a good start. Also try to find some selfed 935's or even selfed-selfed 935's.

12/23/2002 8:16:46 AM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

Thanks Joe,
It sure is a long term project.

12/23/2002 5:19:07 PM

[email protected]

Joe,

Any idea how many generations we're talking about here?

Thanks,
Steve

12/23/2002 6:38:37 PM

Korea

My guess is the "giant pumpkins" of today are a mix of what used to be called: (a) Orange Hungarian, (b)Hungarian Gray, (c) Pink Hungarian, and Mexican Chili (a red C. Maxima that grew up to 200+ pounds. Furthermore, until recent history, these were all just left to the bees to be polinated, so they were all ready mixed up. I had orange, green, pink and red on the same vine, as did all the growers in the "old days" and we just called it by the color it was. Guess in a way, that color "thing" is still of interest, as a C. maxima that is orange is called a pumpkin, whereas a C. maxima that is green is a squash. Anyway, with a mixed up background,a self cross just puts the genetic info. back together in different ways, so anything is possible. Seeds from Peace Rose X Peace rose = anything EXCEPT another Peace rose. I am one of those old fashioned guys who believes anything (except a self crossed original species) grown from a seed in a new variety. And as such, will not be exactly as the "fruit" that produced the seed. For that, you need clones. For example, cuttings from a rose, bulblettes from glads, dividing tubers of dahlias, etc.

12/24/2002 12:05:00 AM

Deer Park WA

COW, that is so true, I have decided to try and self the same pumpkin strain I have been cultivating for several years as I believe that by selfing the plant it will 1. become acclimated to my conditions. 2 will return to its origional dominate gene pool. I may be out there a little on this but you bring up a great point. They all were naturally adapted to their environment and man changed their destiny through propagation.

12/24/2002 1:04:51 AM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

I found some info yesterday on the history of hybrid corn varieties and in that case they selfed for 5 generations before they made the hybrid cross.

12/24/2002 3:09:09 AM

Appalachian Mtns.

Along the lines of what Joe is talking about....
Look for examples such as the 840 Joynson or 703 Smith*(there are many examples out there), both selfed several times and both from the 935 Lloyd lineage. The 935 displays good maternal mitos and chloroplast DNA replication which would make it a good candidate for selfing and then using as the female plant. Further strengthening of a line can be achieved by crossbacking with the mom, grandmom, or greatgrandmother, or fathers as the case may be. Some plants may also make good pollinators but not good mothers, that's where researching your seed comes into play. Like Joe said, picking a line and selfing it for several generations is the theoretical model to use for moving towards purity of lineage.
Crossing two distinctly seperate, but fairly clean, lines may give you the hybrid vigor growers are looking for. It will take several years, and patience, to create such a line. You may also sacrifice size to achieve the seed genetics you're looking for but for those seeking long-term quality seed stock this method may be what you're looking for.
There's been many a good cross that ended with *the* large pumpkin because there was no rational progression to follow past that point. To continue crossing would be "muddling" the lineage. Selfing such a cross would be a good method to decrease the parental lines and strengthen the traits for future use. Again, it requires patience and the willingness to sacrifice size in many cases.

12/24/2002 7:08:21 AM

Appalachian Mtns.

Also as an example.....I plan to create several crosses next year with two distinctly different lines that have no common thread for at least 8-10 generations back. The seed used for these crosses have been selfed or sibbed for at least 4 generations. I hope this gives me the hybrid vigor I'm looking for. Stay tuned.......

12/24/2002 8:34:45 AM

Long Island,New York

Why not just try the 568* Andrews99*?...its a 738Stellpflug..(very selfed and sibbed) crossed with the 1092Burke( 935LLoyde x self...and a strongly selfed sibb line). Joe A grew it in his first year of AG's and got 798Pumpkin.........G

12/24/2002 12:46:02 PM

Western NY

thats a good point G. the crosses have already been done. if you're looking for "hybrid vigor" crosses, they're out there. as for my own, this year i used my 291.5 (792 armstrong x self), the 792 was a selfed 1092, to pollinate my 962 willemese (most people know the background on that one). or, my 315 fom 2000 is another prime example. nic welty has done way more, as have a few other growers. you just need to find more people who believe in the genetics than the size of the fruit it came from to give them a try.

oh, and i selfed the 291.5 again this year (my 413.5), but there are only 5 good seeds.

Andy

12/24/2002 3:24:56 PM

Deer Park WA

Andy W, Only 5 good seeds from the pumpkin! I think I would toss that experiment, and go in a different direction Brother... You don't have any seeds to give away to see if there was any vigor there...

12/24/2002 6:54:04 PM

Western NY

lol, the 413.5 was the one that was selfed a ton of times, not really that much of a demand for those anyway. my 351.8 (962 x 291.5) had a bunch of seeds in it. that's the cross i was talking about.

Andy

12/24/2002 9:13:55 PM