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Deer Park, WI

Hey folks- If you could spare a moment from bashing each other, i'd appreciate a little feedback on the articles I submitted. Im not looking for thank-yous, just your opinions and criticisms. I'd be happy to answer any questions you have as well.

Thank you for your help.

12/16/2002 9:12:40 AM

Appalachian Mtns.

Joe,
I use your concepts as the basis of my cross plans and seed selections.
I think you're right on track.

12/16/2002 9:52:18 AM

[email protected]

I found both articles very informative. As you have pointed out, I can't help but wonder to what extent both genetics & cultural/environmental factors play into AG growth rates. All growers are most likely to bestow the greatest efforts on the best seed they have obtained. So success is far more likely for those seeds. I think we often chock a part of success up to "luck". When the "luck" factor is a combination of all these things plus the "luck" of which seed came from which segment (lobe) on which polinated flower.
We would all know a lot more if Giant Pumpkins were a valuble cash crop/commodity. Then the money would find AG's, & the genetic blueprinting would begin.
As much as I hate to bring this up, the internet may actually impede hybridizing attempts to some extent. The AG is still a little too new. Given time & selective isolation, new traits would become ingrained in some plants. Then after many years of regionalized selective adaptation, crosses would be more likely to exhibit the vigor we see in other crops.
We now are not so isolated. So the plants aren't either. The US Postal Service is breaking down mother natures plan for natural adaptation like a giant bird that likes to commute on a stomach full of AG pumpkin.
In my opinion, some of the best breeding potential would be the seeds someone finds in an old garden shed from the '50's or '60's that delivered some AG traits.
To only have the time, space, & resources to pursue this fruit full time.
Please keep the good info flowing & Thanks.

Steve

12/16/2002 10:30:31 AM

Choctaw, OK

I really wonder how much evironment influences % heavy??? selfed crossed vary in weight, and even a few more generations of selfing down the line still vary in wall thickness and % heavy....if only we knew...

And why do some lines of AG's split more than another line??? ahh!! fustrating!!

case

12/16/2002 2:09:12 PM

Caceres, Spain

Was very nice to find your articles and read them, Joe. They were clear and correct, and a help to many people who don't know much on genetics. I agree with that we only could speak on minihybrid vigor on AGP, since all the seeds we work with are very related -they all come from very few pumpkins of Howard Dill not long ago-, but we want to play, and we want to find any answer to the question: why are some particular seeds so successful? and how can I do in order to repeat or even improve the offspring success of Mr. Holland, Mr. Mombert, Mr. Calai or Mr. Bobier, minimize luck factor and get a bunch of seeds everybody wish to plant to grow that 1500 pounder wich is waiting not far?
Don

12/16/2002 2:20:13 PM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

I was wondering if AG's had been inbred enough to lose vigour in the first place.To me they seem like a whole lot of varieties that haven't been sorted out yet,different colours and sizes of Fruit,leaves and seeds.
If only they didn't take up so much space,I wish I could grow 100 of the same cross and just save seed from the best one.

12/16/2002 5:14:28 PM

[email protected]

And is it possible that just after polination that a significant wind event would cause a predisposition to a creased shell that would later split? Or is this all just individual selection? Or a combination of each?

Like all plant genetic dicussions, this one will probably yield more good questions than answers. But then that's what keeps it interesting for me at least.

In the world of conifers, "sports", or genetic variations often appear on single branches or branchlets. These branches are then propagated vegetively or cloned. It is hard to imagine that this cannot happen in anual fruit crops as well. Though as far as I know, this is not a common trait in vining crops. Does anyone here know? As winter sets in, I will be attending many conferences & pesticide trade shows as an exhibitor in the turf & ornamental fields. Some chemical reps are crossover from ag or just plain ag in some cases. You can rest assured, I will be investigating this possibility further.

Steve

12/16/2002 5:40:23 PM

Kentucky - USA

I read the articles and thought they was very interesting. I have a question for you guys though.Has anybody ever wondered about the ags ability to evolve into taking more fertilizer and nutrients out of the ground every year? I may be wrong but I believe that has more to do with the pumpkins getting bigger than the crossing does.

Tim

12/16/2002 5:43:07 PM

Deer Park WA

Hay Tremor, I know for a fact that AG's are not Annual. I grew a plant that was two years old! (Thanks Madman). I think they are like any plant they will survive indefinatly if the climate/weather doesn't kill them. TAdams I also believe a plant will evolve over time to make the best of their enviroment, if that means smaller leaves to deal with wind and intense heat then the plant will adapt to that over several seasons. I grew the 810 Dill in 00 and it was puny, I continued to grow its offspring and it went up in size over 200 pounds in two years. Same soil same patch...

12/16/2002 11:11:48 PM

[email protected]

I saw that. I found it very interesting indeed. You are right of course. But pumpkins are still grown as anuals & I doubt they would produce well in areas that never saw frost. Summers would likely be too hot.
Did your clone come from a part of the vine that produced a monster?
I think it would be interesting to strike 2 cuttings from the same vine. One from a section that produced a winner. The other from a section that exhibited some shortcomings. Then compare the results where both cuttings are grown under well controlled (greenhouse?) conditions. In theory the two should produce identical results. But that is not the case with all plants. Cells in different parts of plants seem to remember where they came from. In some species, cuttings have been known to continue to exhibit traits that are typical for the area of origin.
An example would be the hormones produced & found in the apical meristem of some trees. Long lived plants eventually outgrow this phenonom. But pumpkins are expected to produce results in 120 days or less. Therefore we should be able to exploit this to our advantage.
I find this aspect of growing to be facinating.
Did your clone produce similar results as the parent?
Thanks,
Steve

12/18/2002 7:55:40 AM

No Place Special

Joe, Awesome article.....I don't know much about genetics so i can't comment. BUT I do have aquestion for you! In 2002 I grew my 139.8 Frantz 01' which was a Big Max seed and crossed it with the 922.5 Emmons. It produced a 120 est with very little care. My question, what can I expect from the seeds, offspring? You can respond here or e-mail. Thanks a bunch MIKE

12/18/2002 11:51:50 AM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

Tremor mentioned a word there that interests me a lot.
Meristem;Its the very small growing tip of the plant cuttings taken from this part of a plant are reckoned to be more virus and disease free,its the bit scientist's do tissue culture with when they rapidly multiply a new potato variety.Think how many growing tips there are on a pumpkin plant.

12/18/2002 12:49:53 PM

Caceres, Spain

Hey Steve, I understand you think that a place without any frost could be too hot in summer for pumpkins to grow huge, IF you are thinking in North America. But there are one big area in Spain, where that hypothesis don't work out at all. It is the north and north west coast of Spain. In winter never frost, and summers are cooler than in Connecticut. Anyway, as far as I know, pumpkins and squash are only cultivated over there in summer, they don't die in winter but get too aged and desease susceptible to work well next year.

12/18/2002 1:09:39 PM

Deer Park WA

Steve, Yes the Clone was from the 1009 Sherber, it was 519 pounds when harverstd Sept 5 01. The beast was gaining 20+ pounds per day when harvested. I selfed the pumpkin and there are still a lot of seeds on bp.coms seed list. The pumpkin had the same shape, cplor and characteristics as Joe Sherbers 1009. I believe it would have even been bigger but I didn't get one lobe pollenated and the fruit was sunk in in that section. I will be growing the seed from my 519 this season to see if it displays the same desirable characteristics as the origional 1009.

12/19/2002 12:08:21 PM

[email protected]

Carlos,
That Mediteranian climate must be terrific. I wonder why no one tries to spray a pumpkin through to the followinbg year? It wouldn'y be a commercial success. But who knows what sort of jump on the saeson the grower would have. A few hormones to keep the fruit from maturing too soon......who knows?

Gads,
Is that vine still alive?

Steve

12/19/2002 5:24:53 PM

Rush, NY

Walcott Pumpkin: This may give you a clue as to what you may get. In 2001 I pollinated a Burpee Prizewinner with a Giant Green Squash. In 2002 I planted 1 seed and gave the plant the same space and care (no water) that I give the Burpee Prizewinners. This plant had three fruit, the largest being 391 pounds and was a good Orange color. My largest Burpee was 195 pounds. The 391 pound fruit was pollinated with a Gaint Squash and I will plant 1 seed from it in 2003.

12/21/2002 7:08:58 AM