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Deer Park WA

Hello Gang,

Having just dug up a main under ground irrigation line in the patch with the tractor. I got to thinking about the benefit of creating a system to water with warm water V.S cold well water. Several Champion growers I have met said they all use holding tanks, solar assited systems, old hot water tanks, above ground pools, anything to heat or temper the water. My question to the masses is does it really matter, and who has used warm V.S cold before? I tried it my first year, and found you have too have a ton of storage to keep a big patch wet!
Thanks in advance for any insight. I mean If it helps get a world record then I'm hooking up the family hot water tank next year!

The Gadberry's

11/19/2002 12:33:35 AM

Puyallup, WA

GADS....Are you sure that you need heated water in Eastern Washington?

11/19/2002 1:28:53 AM

[email protected]

Gads,

I've noticed that not all the champions advocate this procedure. Maybe it came about because holding tanks are too dificult to shade? Or someone simply forgot what the sun can do & then had an unusually good growing year & made the correlation?
The biggest benefit I could think of is for mixing soluble fertilizers that have been improperly stored and have become "clumpy".
Don Langevin doesn't mention warm water in his books though the first one had a grower interview as I recall where it came up. No specifics as to temp though.
I'd really like to see some university test data on this one. There are too many variable in a season to flatly declare success after a change from cold tap or well water to one where some above ground holding tanks suddenly were found to be warm. It could be that the tanks simply allowed for or demonstrated the result of a greater commitment to an entire agronomic program that was the actual reason for increased growth. By that I mean that the tanks would have been installed for a reason. Perhaps to simplify the use of soluble ferts or sea-kelp extracts. Or just to ease the burden on pumps. Or to allow their use at a time when schedules or noise concerns allow. In which case, watering may be taking place at a more desirable time of day. Or may include increased fertility. Perhaps the real cause of increased growth???
Has anyone done side by side comparisons with genetically identical plants on otherwise identical soils & programs & then replicated the test over more than a couple seasons?
And if so, what temperatures are the warm water advocates recommending?
No matter how we look at it, the 130*F water coming out of the average hot water heater will kill the plants. And the water would come at great expense & in small quanities.

You might say I'm a bit sceptical of this claim. LOL!

Steve

11/19/2002 6:34:33 AM

Cornwall UK.(50N 5W)300ft.

I know that I like to jump in the cold sea after a hot day's work or have a hot shower on a cold day.

11/19/2002 8:06:03 AM

Utah

steve you're right there are to many factors to be able to
determine scientifically. and most of us don't have the time or inclination to run university experiments. (graduate school once was enough for me) but well ... we all know how our plants grow much better when it's warmer than when it's cooler. and i think we can all agree that soil temperature a factor. not the only factor but a combination of things.
but in the early season when the ground is still cool the addition of warm water vs cold water, in my opinion, would obviously help... as to how hot and how much ... well its just guess work...
certainly in the hot days of summer when it's hot enough to be misting then its pretty obvious that one doesn't need to be watering with warm water.

11/19/2002 8:59:04 AM

In the shade - PDX, OR

What a great question. I have been wondering this same thing ever since I read about and saw Joe Pukos's water barrels.(in his grower diary) I believe that this was mentioned in his 'featured grower's chat' as well.
I'd like to build on Gad's question:
1) Heated (warm) vrs cold water?
2) Rain water vrs municipal or well water?
3) Is warm rain water the best?

I think it is safe to say that a lot of growers have experienced good growth after a rain during the season.
a note:
I think Fred Cali's results were testament when he started using his rain collection pools. At least this is what was mentioned in the Holland '01 video. It said that his municipal water source was quite basic. He said that he couldn't get anything over 600 pounds when he was using the city water. He switched to the rain water and got up and over the 800lb mark

11/19/2002 1:31:12 PM

[email protected]

Maybe then the warm water is only used to get seeds up? I've done that with late (or early) putting green establishment. But I still wouldn't chance the HOT water on newly emerged foliage. Maybe it's being metered in with cold water to produce luke-warm?

The thermal dynamic property of soils is too strong to be significantly influenced by a sprinkling a hot water unless it's being reaaplied at frequent intervals. Maybe that's one of the HH's screts? I have Joe Pukos email & will ask him.

I plan to collect rainwater from my garage this year. And since I sell Horticultural Spray Oil in black plastic 55 gal drums, I have a virtual unlimited supply of good used ones. Don't you know I have a few here already. Who knows? I may be the next "experimenter". That's why I can't help but wonder if this is science by accident or just plain convenience disguised as science.

Steve

11/19/2002 2:35:10 PM

[email protected]

CEIS,

Rain can & does pull atmospheric Nitrogen down with rain. Tap water can't do that. Also, many plants enjoy the benefit of negative ions that are present during & just after a thunderstorm.

I think that's how flouride & chlorine have gotten a bad rap. It's not that their bad at low levels. It's that they do no good. Probably another reason for the barrels. Barrels are easier & cheaper than a "Dosa-Tron" fertilizer injector.

But I'n really just guessing about the doatron thingy.

Steve

11/19/2002 2:39:11 PM

Ontario

I have always used city waater right out of the tap. I only warm up the water when I fertilize.

andrew

11/19/2002 3:54:32 PM

Utah

i don't think the effect on the soil is negilible.
how big is of an effect is it ? i don't know ..... but
if it's 65 degress outside and the soil temp is lower than that, would you rather water with 65 degree water that has been in a 55 gal. barrel for a couple days or 40 degree water right out of your hose ?
it's hopely common sence science (although a lot of it is trail and error, or serendipitous science)- it would be nice but there isn't the time or the resources for university study. I only have one 1262 Emmons and even if i had a 2nd one i wouldn't be experimenting on it.

gordon

11/19/2002 4:38:46 PM

Menomonie, WI ([email protected])

I believe it is something to due with the microbe activity, and soil temperature. If your well water is 52 degrees like mine and you water for a few hours. That can cool the soil temp quite a bit. Shocking those microbes doing all that work trying to convert all that organic matter in to a usable plant food. Soil temperature has a lot to do with growth. Shannon

11/19/2002 5:15:32 PM

Caceres, Spain

But what is the nicest water temperature for irrigation. I haven't hear yet.

11/19/2002 5:26:50 PM

Tacoma, WA

Tough question, DQ! The water can be 90°in the tank, but by the time it lands on the plant from an overhead sprinkler, it is probably 75°.

Stan

11/19/2002 5:48:24 PM

[email protected]

Don't worry, I wasn't planning on paying a university to do this testing when our tax dollars have already done so for us.

So far Perdue & University of Florida have both published data on reducing transplant shock to summer crops that are planted out early to extend a short growing season.

Pretty cool stuff. More later.

Steve

11/19/2002 7:14:29 PM

[email protected]

This is a very interesting subject.

Some of what I've found:

Greenhouse growers in Alberta are using "tempered" water that is heated to 20*C.

Uni. of Fla says that FL well water is 68-70*F all year round (yuck!) but that when germinating in the greenhouse benches, irrigation water should be raised to 80-85*F. After plant emergence, water temp's must be kept below 80* to prevent stress.

According to UCONN's Jude Boucher & Cornells's Margaret McGrath, Seedling Bacterial Leaf Spot of Peppers is being controlled by treating seeds to a 122*F soak for 25 minutes. The heat destroys the causal pathogen.

Other publications point to the fact that warm water isn't capable of carrying as much oxygen as cool water. This again points to stress for emerged plants.

Most of these publications agree that the impact on field soils is insignificant & agronomically disagreeable (compared to favorable commercial results in greenhouse benches). The cost to heat the water is usually more than the increase in yield will bear. But for hobbyist's in cold areas & short growing seasons, these little tricks could make or break the record. So Gordon is correct that early in the season this is a valid technique. One just has to know when to quit.

Seems like moderation & timing will rule the day again.

Steve

11/19/2002 8:30:00 PM

Deer Park WA

Ok,
Here is why I asked this question, in the Nov,15 addition of the Capital Press (a Northwest Agricultultural newspaper) ther is an article headlined "Cold Water Cuts Rice Yields" It is about a two year study from a "Farm Advisor" in Sacramento CA. Thay studied rice production in the field. They found that "Yeild reduction correlated with temperature gradients in the field". and that "Growers for years have recognized that rice doesn't grow where (cold) irrigation water enters the field". Now this is Sacramento where it gets dang hot in the summer. I think there must be something to this especially since rice grows in the water?

I wonder if ambient temp water for our pumpkins causes them to become more relaxed, kinda like giving someone who is sleeping the old hand in the warm bowl of water trick???

11/19/2002 10:01:18 PM

Puyallup, WA

GADS,
I bet you lost a lot of sleep digging up that theory!!<g>

11/19/2002 11:14:36 PM

Caceres, Spain

My tap water usually is about 70-80 ºF in summer, depending on the time of the day I irrigate. After listen to your opinions, I think is pretty nice, isn't it?

11/20/2002 1:02:51 AM

Utah

for rice they flood the whole field with like 1 foot of water. so could see how cold water would have a effect on yeilds.
for pumpkins it's just a big guessing game depending upon where you life and how your weather is. If you've ever grown a pumpkin in the pacific northwest you know that the weather is cooler than the rest of the country. May and June can be especialy cool. I've know growers that have kept their early season protection on till after the 4th of July.

11/20/2002 9:19:01 AM

In the shade - PDX, OR

So water temperature does have an affect on plant growth.
Or better put - cooler water temperatures are a "limiting factor" when it comes to growth.

I would just like to understand why.
Is this because warmer water is more easily absorbed by the roots?
Does it put them in a better 'comfort zone' & allow for better growth?    
Does warmer water transport soluable fertilizer better?

11/20/2002 6:03:35 PM

Deer Park WA

I have a thought, maybe cold water causes the plant to temporarily shut down, like cold weather does, or like the leafe stomas close when it's hot outside only opposite? I will try a slow drip under leaef water system to this next season on a couple of "test" plants...

...Gerry

11/20/2002 8:11:04 PM

Kuna, Id.

Here's a thought I run almost 300' of funny pipe (black) and misting lines. So I would bet the temp of water in our hoses amd watering lines get real hot as they sit all day. All mine run threw a 3 gal EZ grow bottle that also sits in the sun all day. So as I add cold water I check the temp by hand at th end of the hose or funny pipe and ajust the out put of my EZ grow bottle. Last long enough to make it threw a misting cycle, and heats back up while the misters are off. Some of us may be hitting the plants with scalding water from the hose and not even no it. Thats how I found out when the misters came on and it was way to warm.
Ken

11/20/2002 11:05:07 PM