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Buffalo, NY

I'm still looking for things in common between all of this year's flat/double/ribbon/mutant vines; here's some things to consider, some interesting, some questionable, some off-the-wall:

Of the flat vine plants:
Any have 846 Calai genetics?
Any have 825.5 Shymanski genetics?
Any have other Calai genetics?
Any inbred/selfed/sibbed?
Any seeds PURCHASED such as at a Seminar or Raffle (NOT MAILED!)
Any seeds NOT MAILED, such as your own or a local seed?
Any seeds grown in California in 2000 or 2001?
Any seeds grown in Canada in 2000 or 2001?
Any seeds MAILED from/thru California, New York or DC?
Any seeds MAILED from/thru Canada?
Any seeds that were mailed arrive in packs that appeared to be opened/inspected?
Any seeds started by the "Advanced Seed Starting Method?"
Any seeds DIRECT PLANTED?
Any plants fertilized while INDOORS?
Any plants hit by slight frost or partial frost damage?
Any seeds from a hot climate region grown in a cooler climate region?
Any seeds from a cool climate region grow in a hot climate region?
Any "northern" seeds grown in the South? Any "southern" seeds grown in the North?
Any "western" seeds grown in the East? Any "eastern" seeds grown in the West?
Any have leaves attached to the male flower cones instead of typical petiole "spikes?"

Give me some time, I'll think up some more questions...

Any replies are greatly appreciated; While it would normally be assumed that the flat vines are genetic, replies may give more info on geographic & climate variables, mail irradiation, etc. PLEASE REPLY.

Thanks.
Mark

7/4/2002 4:20:32 PM

Eureka, Ca

Hey Mark, I posted two pictures of my mutant in the photo Gallery. My seeds were mailed from the East, and being grown in a cool Climate out west. This is my third year growing (6 plants in 3 years)and the first time it has happen to me

7/4/2002 4:30:58 PM

Stony Plain, Alberta (near Edmonton)

Mark,
Here's a couple more for the equation:

Any seeds sown/pollinated during the dark of the moon?
Any seeds sown/pollinated during full moon?
Any seeds sown/pollinated on odd numbered days?
Any seeds sown/pollinated on even numbered days?
Any seeds treated with innoculants?
Any developing plants treated with hormones/enzymes such as colchicine? Colchicine can be used to increase the number of chromosomes (poliploidy) in some plants to achieve larger sizes.
This is my first year of competive growing and so far no mutants.
Does Art Bell know anything about this? Were some plants grown near Area 51?
Is there still a pure strain of AG out there somewhere?
Dave

7/4/2002 6:11:46 PM

Western Pa.

korney,

My Calai 846 last year developed a wide flat vine which then split into 2 vines, 1 flat and 1 round.I culled the flat one. The plant ended up growing my 673#. If you check LAST year's mallorn list, I posed the same question, and it seems like quite a few other growers were encountering the same thing with their 846 plant. What puzzles me is that it seems that I have not heard of anyone that had the same occurence with the Calai 846 the year previous. Rather than just genetics, could something else like weather contribute to this?

kilr

7/5/2002 9:12:47 AM

Cologne / Germany

Was just thinking about if you can reduce the risk of strange genetics by avoiding seeds that produced such plants. Degeneracy is really undesirable for the variety.
Reading kilr´s post I think you can´t...weather, climate, soil or how long and where the seed was stored could contribute do this. We need to hear a botanic expert about that.

7/5/2002 11:44:14 AM

Garden State Pumpkins

Kilr, I'm with you I think the strange weather at the start of this year kept a lot of plants in the house and peat pots longer then most of us would have liked. Even the big guys with the large cold frames and heat didn't get the start they wanted. While I think genetics has something to do with it. The genes that are predisposed to it surfaced when the harsh weather conditions were right. This same seeds with last years weather to start would be fine. I bet ya these same seeds planted in good weather next year and you won't have the flat vine problems everyone is having. A new guy but read the old boards often... nothing like this last year! Chuck

7/5/2002 12:37:11 PM

berkshire M.A.

I really think it's the weather . It's been like a yo-yo, hot for a few days than cold and wet . My 760 Patrick & one of my 1049 Hollands where flat / doubles right from the get-go . Now with this hot spell we having my 484 is throwing a side vine that is a double and the same thing for my 845 Bobbier plant . I bet you will see allot of fruit pop this year.

7/5/2002 2:30:00 PM

Deer Park, WI

Folks, check it out... 846, 760, 940 '00 what is the common link in all these fruit... Its the 801 stelts. Do a little research and you will find flatvine all the way with this seed's offspring.

I planted two 940 '00's this year and both were flat from the get go. If it was completely evnvironmental, the other 7 plants in the patch would have gone flat too. Might be able to trace it back to the 567.

Im really pushing for genetics on this one.

7/5/2002 8:08:03 PM

Greencastle, PA

I think it's a genetic problem that is being triggered by the weather, similar to an allergy. Say you're allergic to dogs, you're always allergic to them, but you only have symptoms when you're near them or a person who hs been near them.
Tom

7/5/2002 9:35:00 PM

Deer Park WA

I believe you folks on on to the mistry of the century. All three of my plants exhibited flat vine characteristics early on (right at vine stage). 1230 Daletas 1167 Handy and my 644 from last season 1026 Holland X 410 Gadberry (410 was from Dill 810 in 99 crossed her with Watermans 1 ton cross 1061 Zehr x 1006 geerts) It was cold early untill June I had all of them under green houses with inferred heat lamp directly over them soil temp never got below 50 degrees. My 644 pulled out of it after I removed the tips of the flat double vine (May 20 or so) and has not had a problem since. The 1230 and the 1167 continue to throw double vines and wild flowers. I believe that the cool weather played a part but that there is a genetic evolution that is changing how AG plants will be in the future. I sure wish that 10 lobe on my 1230 was on the dang main it could have be interesting 1500# ????

7/5/2002 11:43:19 PM

Buffalo, NY

I just put some pics up on my webpage of about 5 feet of the 1020 Papez I just removed, will try to add them to my BP Gallery also.

was the Mombert 567.5 a flat vine?

http://server3001.freeyellow.com/bowtiesupply/img/garden/1020Papez_Double_Flat01BYEBYE.JPG
http://server3001.freeyellow.com/bowtiesupply/img/garden/1020Papez_Double_Flat02BYEBYE.JPG
http://server3001.freeyellow.com/bowtiesupply/img/garden/1020Papez_Double_Flat03BYEBYE.JPG
http://server3001.freeyellow.com/bowtiesupply/img/garden/1020Papez_Double_Flat04BYEBYE.JPG

Hey Gads, how many lobes is this:
http://server3001.freeyellow.com/bowtiesupply/img/garden/multilobe.JPG

It's from my only non-mutant plant in the ground, the 1062 Rivard.

Mark

7/6/2002 1:26:52 PM

Ga.

Korney,,I say 6 1/2.....Should be a monster.....

7/6/2002 1:32:34 PM

Deer Park WA

Korny, look at the center of the female and notice the "dividing lines" seperating the lobes. I know it is hard to say exactly, expecially if they roll out from behind the center like mine did. Cut that sucker in half and it will give you more insight. I see five for sure with a strange growth on the left. probably a 6 or a 7??? Try to grow one like that if you get a chance, as long as it's not a "double blossem" (Mutant) I believe we all are experiencing an evolutionary "adjustment" in Atlantic Giants.

7/7/2002 12:33:27 AM