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Connecticut, USA

How many growers out there pollinate with multiple males from DIFFERENT plants? Several of the seeds on the seed page came to me with multiple male pollinators listed. Is this considered open pollinated? Does the pollen from two different males actually impact the genetics of the seed? How in the world should this be listed on the genetics page?

For example: 690 Berard 1999 = 1056.5 Stellpflug x 1056.5 Stellpflug and 929.4 Kuhn.

3/10/2002 6:39:17 PM

Rexburg, Idaho ([email protected] )

I don't understand the logic behind this either. It simply makes any seed unreliable because you don't really know what the pollinator was. If you ask my opinion is should probably considered open pollinated. I'm not going to plant any seed with multiple pollinators.

3/10/2002 7:02:01 PM

North Ga

I would say "open pollinatin" since there is no known male that ferilized the "shemale" (as Festus would say).

3/10/2002 7:04:14 PM

South Hill, Virginia

I agree that it would be classified as "open pollinated". There is no way to tell if truly pollinated by both males or just by one or the other. Not to mention that multiple males would be a programming nightmare for those tracking AG genetics.

3/10/2002 7:53:00 PM

Long Island,New York

I think it should be listed as x 1056.5 and 929because those are the two different pollinators used. By open means...by anything....x hubbard, by big max, by squash, x self....If you want to consider it x open...fine....but its a controlled pollination in that its more known than open. Both are good genes.Although you don't know the if seed your growing is by the 1056 or the 929, you DO know its NOT by your nieghbors Hubbard squash. The PROPER and CORRECT way is by both...or multiple with each noted.
This is done, by the way, if you don't have as many males around as you want on the day the female opens. A good female in good position at the right time shouldn't be wasted because you only have 1 male flower...after all....are you going for a big pumpkin or going for seeds?And if your going for seeds,why risk it all on one big pkn...why not grow 5-6-7 small pkns with the same cross for the seeds?.....G

3/10/2002 8:03:56 PM

Connecticut, USA

That is a good point Glenn. If I didn't have mulitple males from the desired plant ready I would use whatever I could to pollinate a main vine female in the "right" spot. The fact that it is a controlled pollination is exactly why I had a hard time calling it open. My initial thought was to mark the male as the 1056 and add a note for the second male pollinator. The reason for this is, as Rich points out, the database is not setup for multiple males.

3/10/2002 8:20:57 PM

Long Island,New York

Yes Ken...exactly. The AGGC database...or the old one..."Cucurbyte software" had the same problem initially. It evolved from "x ope" to "having the option of "multiple" and then in the comments section was the two or three different males. "Multiple" is much more accurate than "open" and certainly fairer on the grower giving the seeds out. Remember: multiple doesn't mean bad....maybe half as good but certaily not bad....right Rock Rivard?

3/10/2002 8:52:42 PM

Puyallup, WA

You are aware that Geneva Emmons frequently uses multiple pollinators? She has told me that if she does not have enough males from one plant, she will use additional ones from another. I believe that she likes three male pollinators for each female.

3/10/2002 11:07:30 PM

I have no problems with multiplicity (is that a word?? LOL)

My 1062 grew on the 914 Wentzell which was pollinated using different males. The 914 is known to throw at least two distinct shapes...this will happen with multiple pollinations. Like any other cross, you just hope to get the shape/color/size you were looking for.

I wouldn't overly worry over using a seed that has that multiplicity (love the sound of that word LOL). What I would look into is which males were used ... pretty much in the same fashion one looks at the more conventional crosses. In the case of the 914 you have 1006 Greer x 782 Wentzell OR 1006 x 810 McInnis. Both crosses are interesting, so without knowing which one you are are actually getting, you still know (or at least hope) the cross should be good.

3/11/2002 11:57:33 AM

Ga.

Rock,could the 782 and 810 being crossed on same female form there own little size and shape (genetics) also??? Or would it just be one or the other??? Understand my question???

3/11/2002 4:27:07 PM

Utah

jeff-

i believe that it's just one or the other.
each ovule "egg" is fertilized by only one pollen
grain "sperm".

3/11/2002 6:08:45 PM

canal winchester ohio

Gordon you are right & since there are numerous lobes (ovules) each seed pocket will contain the same genetic make-up.So if you make a cross, say a 846 x 723&705 & the 846 had 5 lobes you could have 3 seed pockets that are 846x723 , and 2 pockets that are 846x705. Now I know there will be no way of telling which is which, but if you harvested the seeds by seed pocket & mark each container you keep then in like this ( 846 x 723&705 seed pocket 1)& you had good results with a certain seed you would know where to get it from again.
Some people might agree with me but I strongly believe that the "hot" seeds come from certain pockets. Because not all 705,723,801.5 ect. preform the same. When I finally get the cross I want this year I'm harvesting the seeds & sorting them according to which pockets they came out of, so if someone gets a large one out of my cross I will know exactly where it came from.
Now I may be completely off-base but it is just my idea.........Paul

3/11/2002 6:29:08 PM

canal winchester ohio

Just a follow up to futher bolster my idea, now follow me on this because it sometimes confuses me too...LOL
A man & woman have a child & that child carries certain traits from the father & certain traits from the mother.
The have another child , it carries certain traits also but a little different ( we all don't look alike)
And so on & so on with each child they have.
Now in a female blossom on the pumpkin there are say 5 lobes & it takes 5 grains of pollen to pollinate all five. That is like 5 births right? All carring different traits from the male & female, so when you plant the next generation of seeds all 5 pockets will develope differently.

3/11/2002 6:37:35 PM

Pulaski Tn [email protected]

ya'll are all so far over my head i'm having a brain freeze and i'm not even shotgunning beers!!! i probably wont ever get a big one like the rest of ya'll will but i'm gonna just stick with the bees, i figure they know more about pollinating than all of us combined do..

3/11/2002 7:03:40 PM

Riverton, WY

Paul
I've been under the impression that it takes a single grain of pollen to pollinate a single seed. It seems to me that it would take a lot of pollen granules to pollinate each lobe, & that if the full lobe isn't pollinated it could affect the shape of the pumpkin.
Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

3/11/2002 7:33:20 PM

canal winchester ohio

No, I believe it is one grain per lobe & as far as mishapen ( and I'm probably off base here) it could be described as a mother who ( god forbid)loses her baby early. Something just went wrong during the development of the lobe ( incomplete pollination,deformed egg in the lobe,deformed granule that pollinated it)
Again, just a guess...........

3/11/2002 7:45:45 PM

Liverpool , England

Yo Paul,
to go further...the pollen grains from the male will be slightly different to each other as well as the female segments so many different combinations will occur.. this is where the silver bullet comes from.... 600 seeds, all the same but slighlty different..... just the odds of you planting that silver bullet is 600-1. Looks like everboby sent their silver bullets to Geneva...lol. Yes Ron the lack of full pollination would affect the shape of the fruit in my view. Look at the fruits that have a big hollow on the top side. Maybe these were pollinated on a hot day and the top segment was to hot to transfer the pollen to the embryo seeds and hence that segment never got pollinated and so never grew causing the hollow.


Alun

3/11/2002 7:57:50 PM

CT

This still begs the direct question..
Does 1 grain of pollen fertilize each lobe thus creating similar seeds in each lobe(5 grains for 5 lobes) or does each pollen grain create its own geneticaly unique seed?(600 seeds from 600 pollen grains) I thought it was the latter.

I want to know....

3/11/2002 8:35:30 PM

Long Island,New York

1 grain of pollen per egg....many eggs in a lobe.....many lobes in a fruit.....each joining of a male pollen with a female egg is different....but have a similar gene pool to work with. The genes supplied are the same, but the way they arrange themselves is different.....so similar is the word here...not the same........g

3/11/2002 8:47:23 PM

Morris, Connecticut

Ron is correct. It does take a single pollen grain per single seed. That means that somewhere between 3-600 pollen grains must come in contact with the stigma for complete pollination to occur. Each seed will have the same mother but if open pollinated can have several different fathers. If the pollination is controlled then the parentage of the seeds is known. If two fathers are used the parentage of the seeds is unknown unless it is clear which portion of the stigma was pollinated by which father. The lobe a particular seed ends up in corresponds directly to the segment of the stigma that its fathers pollen contacted.

Huffs pumpkins stated earlier that "..in a female blossom on the pumpkin there are say 5 lobes & it takes 5 grains of pollen to pollinate all five. That is like 5 births right?"

This is partially correct except a pollen grain must hit the stigma for each of the unfertilized seeds within the pumpkin. Each seed is then fertilized and each seed is like 3-600 separate births. If all segments of the stigma are pollenated in different proportions the coresponding lobes will have the same proportion of fertilized seeds. Lobes with fewer fertilized seeds can visibly affect the overall shape of the fruit.

hope this helps,

Adam

3/11/2002 9:02:22 PM

canal winchester ohio

I told ya it was just a guess, I should have spent more time in school & less time cutting classes to go to work. Thanks guys for the help...Paul ( school of hard knocks...LOL )

3/11/2002 9:13:11 PM

Midway City, California

======dna

3/11/2002 9:24:00 PM

Tipp City, Ohio

Don't forget about the serogate pumpkins that are to just carry seeds...lol

I think it would be best for me to plant a seed that I knew what genetics were behind them. That way I could give them away without wondering was that a seed with father "A" or father "B"....Tom

3/11/2002 11:05:12 PM

Deer Park, WI

I cant help but pipe in on this one... to clear this matter up i direct you to an article on my website. Titled Pollinationa and Fertilization. It should lay to rest any questions you had about pollination and fertilization. You can find a link to it here under the links section. Its call Joze Pumpkins and Squash page.

3/12/2002 8:43:15 AM

Utah

thanks Joe
interesting reading.

3/12/2002 11:07:40 AM

Grants Pass, Oregon

Its easier getting pregnant, then understanding this stuff. I have a lot of reading to do on this subject before it all sinks in. lol

3/12/2002 11:38:53 AM

Puyallup, WA

You got that right Carrie....especially if you're a girl!!

3/12/2002 11:15:10 PM

Myrtle Creek, Oregon

I'm gettin a headache!!!
Its easyer to understand how my stepson got 3 gals pregnant
I do know what causes that!! LOL <;-) H-K-J

3/16/2002 10:51:13 AM